How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? (Volume II)
- Thread starter SHARK
- Start date
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Maldur my friend! I would want the party to win based on their plans and die rolls. If they lose--they lose. That is just the way things go, you know? I mean, it's not like they don't have the resources of the most powerful empire in the Western world to help them, after all! Where else would they have an opportunity to command 350,000 of the Vallorean Empire's ferocious Legions in a fight to achieve a major battlefield and strategic victory?
Victory in this campaign will eliminate the Kingdom of Galleran's southernmost province, reduce their trade and wealth, and eliminate some substantial military forces of the enemy. In addition, potent magical and natural resources will be thus siezed in hand, and there will also be political ramifications.
The political ramifications are that the Kingdom of Galleran will be reduced in its political resources--foreign kingdoms to the south will cease sending mercenaries, and instead, they will begin to increase trade and grant political concessions to a victorious Vallorean Empire.
Of course, a victory here will be strategic for Vallorea, but a defeat for Vallorea will, while not decisive, will be serious in and of itself. The Valloreans would have to be very careful of their next campaign, and they would have more diplomatic problems with southern kingdoms continuing to help the Kingdom of Galleran.
How's that?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Maldur my friend! I would want the party to win based on their plans and die rolls. If they lose--they lose. That is just the way things go, you know? I mean, it's not like they don't have the resources of the most powerful empire in the Western world to help them, after all! Where else would they have an opportunity to command 350,000 of the Vallorean Empire's ferocious Legions in a fight to achieve a major battlefield and strategic victory?
Victory in this campaign will eliminate the Kingdom of Galleran's southernmost province, reduce their trade and wealth, and eliminate some substantial military forces of the enemy. In addition, potent magical and natural resources will be thus siezed in hand, and there will also be political ramifications.
The political ramifications are that the Kingdom of Galleran will be reduced in its political resources--foreign kingdoms to the south will cease sending mercenaries, and instead, they will begin to increase trade and grant political concessions to a victorious Vallorean Empire.
Of course, a victory here will be strategic for Vallorea, but a defeat for Vallorea will, while not decisive, will be serious in and of itself. The Valloreans would have to be very careful of their next campaign, and they would have more diplomatic problems with southern kingdoms continuing to help the Kingdom of Galleran.
How's that?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Maldur
First Post
SHARK, I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either).
Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous.
What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?
My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.
But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games
?
Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that.
Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper).
Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous.
What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?
My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.
But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games
? Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that.
Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper).
I'm afraid the Epic Level Handbook won't be much help there even when you get it.
I guess I don't see the problem. If you're trying to tell the story of the heroes and their enemies, you plan out the bad guys' evil schemes, and you see how they play out against the good guys.
Evocative images and clever plans go well together.
That's what hand-waving's for.
SHARK's scenario here is far grander than any scheme I'd work up on my own. I'm happy to have a trail of a few clues, a few big fights (some easy, some hard, all interesting in some way), and a villain who finally gets his comeuppence at the end.
I like to center any world-building on the heroes. I'd rather keep most of the world vague and flexible until I need it.
Maldur
First Post
Clearing parts of the forests surrounding the fortress.
Doing this has the following advantages:
Wood - the wood can be stored, and used for the following things: arrows/javelins, heating/fires/ aditional pallisades ( creating filrelanes/killzones), warmachines etc.
LOS - clearing the surrounding area, decreasing the chance for people sneaking up to the castle.
Obstacles - the stumps of the trees (particulary if hardened by fire) create obstacles for warmachines and other large objects.
entanglement - if the undergrowth is partially left behind, entangle spells can be cast.
Traps - the stumps and undergrowth form nice places a large amount of traps can be places. Oiltraps, firegliphs tanglefoot bags, alchemistic fire, punjitraps etc, the cleared zone can be turned into a death trap. this combined with missile fire from the keep of from smaller fortifications surrounding the keep can prove very deadly.
Denial - it also denies the enemy easy to use resources close to the keep. If timber needs to be transported to the keep it buys time.
A physical assault upon the keep should be LONG and very hard for the legions. Al we need is time, if we delay them long enough the king will turn up.
Doing this has the following advantages:
Wood - the wood can be stored, and used for the following things: arrows/javelins, heating/fires/ aditional pallisades ( creating filrelanes/killzones), warmachines etc.
LOS - clearing the surrounding area, decreasing the chance for people sneaking up to the castle.
Obstacles - the stumps of the trees (particulary if hardened by fire) create obstacles for warmachines and other large objects.
entanglement - if the undergrowth is partially left behind, entangle spells can be cast.
Traps - the stumps and undergrowth form nice places a large amount of traps can be places. Oiltraps, firegliphs tanglefoot bags, alchemistic fire, punjitraps etc, the cleared zone can be turned into a death trap. this combined with missile fire from the keep of from smaller fortifications surrounding the keep can prove very deadly.
Denial - it also denies the enemy easy to use resources close to the keep. If timber needs to be transported to the keep it buys time.
A physical assault upon the keep should be LONG and very hard for the legions. Al we need is time, if we delay them long enough the king will turn up.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Posted by Maldur:
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"SHARK, I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either).
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Well, as mmadsen mentioned, the ELH doesn't really adress the subject of epic-level players influencing the campaign world. As for myself, I like the idea of players affecting the campaign world. I think that the Game Master should build in, that is to say inherently, a buffer-capacity for the players to have a significant affect upon the campaign world. Why not? If the Game Master is very rigic in controlling every little thing that the players can do and affect, then really, what does the Game Master need the players for? The Game Master is then really writing a novel, and the players are simply a dramatic distraction, wouldn't it seem?
I must say, that my players love having this kind of power, this kind of awesome ability to affect history, and the destiny of peoples and nations. Try it! Who needs a Vorpal Sword? Really, though, it can also be seen as a "story award" or form of reward, to the players, rather than mountains of treasure or some new magic item. How about an army of 100,000 soldiers to do thy will? I can allow literally mountains of treasure to fall into the party's hands--because they have an army to share it with. The pride, the prestige, the political power and leverage gained within the campaign by having the command of an army is--in itself--very influential, and intoxicating. It makes a fine reward itself.
Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous.
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Hmmm...well, keep in mind that the rest of the "world" is doing its own thing. There is stuff going on throughout the world all the time. The players, after all, can't be everywhere! However, as to affecting large regions, again, why not? I plan future events *loosely*--as opposed to hard and fast--so that players can have an affect, if they desire to do so. If not, or if they fail, then the events that I loosely planned get more detail, and become a part of the new reality. Indeed, my world scope is enormous! I have a world that is the size of Jupiter!
Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?
My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.
But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games ?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
It's kinda funny that you mention it Maldur, because, as mmadsen wrote, it is both. It is both vivid images, and clever plans! Mmadsen is very good at grasping my thoughts on the matter. He and I tend to think along very similar lines of thought! It's great! You see, Maldur, I tend to plan what I must--the essentials of something, or a framework--whatever is absolutely necessary. The rest, I like to "image" or just run with the "imaging film" in my head, and the detail provided by that process, combined with the player's actions and responses, will dictate what else needs to be precisely detailed, if that makes any sense. Does it? The image of a vast plain filled with rank upon rank of legionnaires, all waiting for the orders to march is breathtaking! The players look out on the ranks of troops, the groups of heavy cavalry, the ranks of engineers, wagons filled with the tools of war, the clusters of Vallorean priests, their chanting and holy oaths carving glowing runes within the very air as the clouds run to gather and do their bidding; the horses are calm...the war dogs chomp and bark with excitement; the Vallorean wizards sweep through the vast formations, their hands waving through the cool air, casting forth their spells upon the host in readiness for battle; Prayers are uttered forth as they loudly echo across the plain for all to hear; as one, the soldiers kneel in prayer; finally, the banners are raised high, the trumpets have sounded readiness; several tribunes and generals approach the players--who are in command--and ask, "My lords, do we march?" With a swift command, the generals proceed. With fifes, and a long, roaring drumroll that breaks into a cadence, the legions rise, form up, and begin the march to the horizon.
The legions will march into Hell itself if they are commanded to do so. They march with utter trust and devotion in Vallorea, and in their commanders. The legionnaires know that they shall be victorious. Why? Because in 2,000 years, the Vallorean Empire has lost many battles, but has never lost a war.
The legions march onward, the dust swirling about them as the columns of troops stretch out, the lines of horsemen galloping here and there, and the dogs capering about. Overhead, a group of summoned Giant Eagles, patrons to the Legions, fly over them, watching for enemies.
Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that.
Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper)."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
I do hope it inspires you Maldur! Remember, though, it is *both* clever plans, and bold, vivid images! I say let your images go! Run wild with the images, and let the players join them! Let the players help create additional images, and worry about the details as you go! Let your campaign be big enough to hold your visions! I can understand your reticence for doing this--but really, it frees the game up into really being a vehicle of wondrous imagination!
My own players are chomping at the bit with the prospect of leading vast armies in desperate battle! The fate of cities, of peoples, of nations, teeter and stagger by their actions, by their decisions! How much greater a reward can there be? Indeed, the players are feverish in their own plans and strategies for carrying out such an epic battle in the campaign! It's going to blend enormous battle between huge armies across a blasted, hellish battlefield, mixed with desperate, clandestine raids behind enemy lines, with deep assaults into dark, terrifying dungeons! They know they are going to face undead, demons, ferocious soldiers, and horrible monsters from the gibbering darkness!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Posted by Maldur:
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"SHARK, I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either).
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Well, as mmadsen mentioned, the ELH doesn't really adress the subject of epic-level players influencing the campaign world. As for myself, I like the idea of players affecting the campaign world. I think that the Game Master should build in, that is to say inherently, a buffer-capacity for the players to have a significant affect upon the campaign world. Why not? If the Game Master is very rigic in controlling every little thing that the players can do and affect, then really, what does the Game Master need the players for? The Game Master is then really writing a novel, and the players are simply a dramatic distraction, wouldn't it seem?
I must say, that my players love having this kind of power, this kind of awesome ability to affect history, and the destiny of peoples and nations. Try it! Who needs a Vorpal Sword?
Really, though, it can also be seen as a "story award" or form of reward, to the players, rather than mountains of treasure or some new magic item. How about an army of 100,000 soldiers to do thy will? I can allow literally mountains of treasure to fall into the party's hands--because they have an army to share it with. The pride, the prestige, the political power and leverage gained within the campaign by having the command of an army is--in itself--very influential, and intoxicating. It makes a fine reward itself. Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous.
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Hmmm...well, keep in mind that the rest of the "world" is doing its own thing. There is stuff going on throughout the world all the time. The players, after all, can't be everywhere!
However, as to affecting large regions, again, why not? I plan future events *loosely*--as opposed to hard and fast--so that players can have an affect, if they desire to do so. If not, or if they fail, then the events that I loosely planned get more detail, and become a part of the new reality. Indeed, my world scope is enormous! I have a world that is the size of Jupiter!Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?
My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.
But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games ?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
It's kinda funny that you mention it Maldur, because, as mmadsen wrote, it is both. It is both vivid images, and clever plans! Mmadsen is very good at grasping my thoughts on the matter. He and I tend to think along very similar lines of thought!
It's great! You see, Maldur, I tend to plan what I must--the essentials of something, or a framework--whatever is absolutely necessary. The rest, I like to "image" or just run with the "imaging film" in my head, and the detail provided by that process, combined with the player's actions and responses, will dictate what else needs to be precisely detailed, if that makes any sense. Does it? The image of a vast plain filled with rank upon rank of legionnaires, all waiting for the orders to march is breathtaking! The players look out on the ranks of troops, the groups of heavy cavalry, the ranks of engineers, wagons filled with the tools of war, the clusters of Vallorean priests, their chanting and holy oaths carving glowing runes within the very air as the clouds run to gather and do their bidding; the horses are calm...the war dogs chomp and bark with excitement; the Vallorean wizards sweep through the vast formations, their hands waving through the cool air, casting forth their spells upon the host in readiness for battle; Prayers are uttered forth as they loudly echo across the plain for all to hear; as one, the soldiers kneel in prayer; finally, the banners are raised high, the trumpets have sounded readiness; several tribunes and generals approach the players--who are in command--and ask, "My lords, do we march?" With a swift command, the generals proceed. With fifes, and a long, roaring drumroll that breaks into a cadence, the legions rise, form up, and begin the march to the horizon.The legions will march into Hell itself if they are commanded to do so. They march with utter trust and devotion in Vallorea, and in their commanders. The legionnaires know that they shall be victorious. Why? Because in 2,000 years, the Vallorean Empire has lost many battles, but has never lost a war.
The legions march onward, the dust swirling about them as the columns of troops stretch out, the lines of horsemen galloping here and there, and the dogs capering about. Overhead, a group of summoned Giant Eagles, patrons to the Legions, fly over them, watching for enemies.
Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:
"Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that.
Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper)."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
I do hope it inspires you Maldur! Remember, though, it is *both* clever plans, and bold, vivid images! I say let your images go! Run wild with the images, and let the players join them! Let the players help create additional images, and worry about the details as you go! Let your campaign be big enough to hold your visions! I can understand your reticence for doing this--but really, it frees the game up into really being a vehicle of wondrous imagination!
My own players are chomping at the bit with the prospect of leading vast armies in desperate battle! The fate of cities, of peoples, of nations, teeter and stagger by their actions, by their decisions! How much greater a reward can there be? Indeed, the players are feverish in their own plans and strategies for carrying out such an epic battle in the campaign! It's going to blend enormous battle between huge armies across a blasted, hellish battlefield, mixed with desperate, clandestine raids behind enemy lines, with deep assaults into dark, terrifying dungeons! They know they are going to face undead, demons, ferocious soldiers, and horrible monsters from the gibbering darkness!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Last edited:
Maldur
First Post
Thx mmadsen and SHARK for your replies.
I had a bit of the sunday mornin blues, combined with a small bit of jealousy
As I said I love world building, but I find it very hard to get anyone to think with me stuff like that. I cant always ask my players ( for obvious reasons), besides they are not really into stuff like that. I discovered that brainstorming on ideas really helps me figuring things out for my homebrew.
Luckily Im starting getting the hang of writing stuff down in a way other people know what im talking about (thinking fast and writing/typing slow is a bad combination).
OH Im definately inspired
I had a bit of the sunday mornin blues, combined with a small bit of jealousy
As I said I love world building, but I find it very hard to get anyone to think with me stuff like that. I cant always ask my players ( for obvious reasons), besides they are not really into stuff like that. I discovered that brainstorming on ideas really helps me figuring things out for my homebrew.
Luckily Im starting getting the hang of writing stuff down in a way other people know what im talking about
(thinking fast and writing/typing slow is a bad combination).OH Im definately inspired
