How would you defend your subterranean kingdom?
- Thread starter mmadsen
- Start date
Despite Machiavelli's concerns about mercenaries, I have to agree that a Dwarf assault team should know how to take a Goblin stronghold.
If you're the Goblins though, how do you defend against Dwarf siege engineers and heavy infantry? In their heavy armor, behind large shields, the Dwarves shrug off most light missile attacks, and they quickly cut down any light Goblin infantry they can get their hands on. Their siege engineers and axe/pick-armed soldiers tear down light walls and gates quickly. Low ceilings certainly don't slow them down.
The chief weakness of the Dwarf heavy infantry has to be their lack of mobility. Although Goblin skirmishers won't cause heavy casualties with sporadic javelin and shortbow attacks, the Dwarf infantry can't very well chase them down.
Smart Goblin defenses would also have the Dwarf forces sliding down slippery slopes, crossing rickety bridges, etc.
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Irda Ranger
First Post
Don't invest in defences ... not worth it.
If I were the Goblin King, I would have just enough defences to hold off village mobs and small parties of adventurers, and not a bit more. If the Human Legions or the Dwarven Commandos came knocking, I wouldn't hestitate to sound the retreat. Goblins aren't meant to withstand that kind of assault (that's what Hobgoblins are for). Since Goblins are sneaky (Hide and Move Silently bonuses), not strong, my strengths are evasion and sabotage.
Unfortunately, my troops are not disciplined enough to act independantly. If I (or a Captain) are not there to enforce our orders, most common Goblins would run and abandon us. Of course, I would send them into a useless reargaurd action so I could escape, given the chance.
Lots of escape tunnels, with several decoy excape tunnels so that the enemy who may give chase has to split their forces.
If I had the spellcasting resources I would want to do something to protect from Divinations and Earth spells. Earthquake and Rock to Mud are pretty rough on underground kingdoms. Teleport magics aren't a major concern because of the very high likleyhood of the teleporter fusing his head with a tunnel ceiling.
All entrance tunnels would have "flanking" tunnels. Tunnels on either side that have room for archers and spear weilders, or the application of explosives/oils/poisonous vermin. Protective U-tunnels are a great idea. Never would have though of that myself.
Depending on how "commited" I am to an area I may have several bases connected by tunnels within a general vacinity. Whenever the local surface dwellers start raiding one too often, I just abandon it and move to the next base. In this way I just cycle through them every couple years. In the mean time sending in "night raids" to poison wells and food supplies is a good way and making sure the humans never breed enough warriors to build up a Legion's worth of soldiers.
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What I am trying to get at is that Goblins are punks. They would never be able to resist a concerted attack from Humans or Dwarves. Anywhere there is a strong presence of one of these two races, Goblins would be few and far between. They exist where humanity is scattered and disorganized. Hobgoblins are another story (and thread) entirely. I think they (with Ogre or Ogrillon shock troops) would be able to resist Legions and whatnot, but not the Goblin King. He's just not in that league.
Irda Ranger
If I were the Goblin King, I would have just enough defences to hold off village mobs and small parties of adventurers, and not a bit more. If the Human Legions or the Dwarven Commandos came knocking, I wouldn't hestitate to sound the retreat. Goblins aren't meant to withstand that kind of assault (that's what Hobgoblins are for). Since Goblins are sneaky (Hide and Move Silently bonuses), not strong, my strengths are evasion and sabotage.
Unfortunately, my troops are not disciplined enough to act independantly. If I (or a Captain) are not there to enforce our orders, most common Goblins would run and abandon us. Of course, I would send them into a useless reargaurd action so I could escape, given the chance.
Lots of escape tunnels, with several decoy excape tunnels so that the enemy who may give chase has to split their forces.
If I had the spellcasting resources I would want to do something to protect from Divinations and Earth spells. Earthquake and Rock to Mud are pretty rough on underground kingdoms. Teleport magics aren't a major concern because of the very high likleyhood of the teleporter fusing his head with a tunnel ceiling.
All entrance tunnels would have "flanking" tunnels. Tunnels on either side that have room for archers and spear weilders, or the application of explosives/oils/poisonous vermin. Protective U-tunnels are a great idea. Never would have though of that myself.
Depending on how "commited" I am to an area I may have several bases connected by tunnels within a general vacinity. Whenever the local surface dwellers start raiding one too often, I just abandon it and move to the next base. In this way I just cycle through them every couple years. In the mean time sending in "night raids" to poison wells and food supplies is a good way and making sure the humans never breed enough warriors to build up a Legion's worth of soldiers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I am trying to get at is that Goblins are punks. They would never be able to resist a concerted attack from Humans or Dwarves. Anywhere there is a strong presence of one of these two races, Goblins would be few and far between. They exist where humanity is scattered and disorganized. Hobgoblins are another story (and thread) entirely. I think they (with Ogre or Ogrillon shock troops) would be able to resist Legions and whatnot, but not the Goblin King. He's just not in that league.
Irda Ranger
Nail
First Post
Goblins as Bronzed Gods?
Exactly.
How does the Goblin King defend his lair against {SHARK'S} human legions or Dwarven Mercs?
He doesn't.
Goblins are small, lazy, disorganized (Chaotic Evil, remember?) snivelling parasites. We know that. They know that. If threatened, they run. "Defence" is not in their vocabulary (regardless of their Int score, BTW).
Of course, a DM can change that. Heck, he could make 'em into freakin' bronzed GODs of the Underworld. (A vision of a well-tanned, heavily musculed goblin on the cover of a muscule-mag comes to mind. Iiiiiiiick.) But then, they wouldn't be goblins, would they?
Goblin traps are simple to build, cheap to make, and practically rotted thru, 'cause the lazy buggers haven't been maintaining them.
Digging tunnels and pits? Installing double-steel porticullises and air-tight doors? Maintaining complicated trap machinery to flood rooms with oil, water, or poisionous gas? Coordinating multiple squads of counter-strike teams, with a reserve squad?
Gimme a break. The King should count himself lucky if he's not one of the first to be killed by a scrying and teleporting-without-error adventuring party. The King got that way because he knows when to run and where to hide.
It's good to be King.
Irda Ranger said:
Exactly.
How does the Goblin King defend his lair against {SHARK'S} human legions or Dwarven Mercs?
He doesn't.
Goblins are small, lazy, disorganized (Chaotic Evil, remember?) snivelling parasites. We know that. They know that. If threatened, they run. "Defence" is not in their vocabulary (regardless of their Int score, BTW).
Of course, a DM can change that. Heck, he could make 'em into freakin' bronzed GODs of the Underworld. (A vision of a well-tanned, heavily musculed goblin on the cover of a muscule-mag comes to mind. Iiiiiiiick.) But then, they wouldn't be goblins, would they?
Goblin traps are simple to build, cheap to make, and practically rotted thru, 'cause the lazy buggers haven't been maintaining them.
Digging tunnels and pits? Installing double-steel porticullises and air-tight doors? Maintaining complicated trap machinery to flood rooms with oil, water, or poisionous gas? Coordinating multiple squads of counter-strike teams, with a reserve squad?
Gimme a break. The King should count himself lucky if he's not one of the first to be killed by a scrying and teleporting-without-error adventuring party. The King got that way because he knows when to run and where to hide.
It's good to be King.
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Re: Goblins as Bronzed Gods?
They've got simpler, easier ways to kill you. Because they may be lazy, and they may be cowardly, but they're also mean and nasty.
They may be lazy cowards, but that doesn't mean they can't kill you. A large number of lazy cowards with simple, cheap traps can put you in a world of hurt. They don't need double-steel porticullises, air-tight doors, and complicated trap machinery.
They've got simpler, easier ways to kill you. Because they may be lazy, and they may be cowardly, but they're also mean and nasty.
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Re: Don't invest in defences ... not worth it.
If Imperial Legions with Siege Engineers show up, it's time to go. On the other hand, should the Goblins be afraid of the Duke's Knights and Footmen? They're in a subterranean stronghold! It's probably harder to take than an elaborate castle.
Very true.
One of the great advantages of a heavily fortified position is that it doesn't take much courage to shoot through arrow slits or pour boiling water down a murder hole.
How are escape tunnels any different from entrances you have to guard?
Nail
First Post
Re: Re: Goblins as Bronzed Gods?
And of those defences mentioned in this thread, only a handful fall into that "simple, cheap" category. Digging elaborate mazes and carving out multiple murder holes does not fall into the "simple, cheap" category. It falls into the "King-spends-mucho-effort-to-get-those-underlings-he-can-grab-to-do-the-work" category. Or perhaps the "Stumble-onto-abandoned-dwarven-stronghold" category. For the most part, this ain't gonna happen.
There are advantages to being small and Chaotic Evil. Crafting and maintaining organized defences isn't one of them.
As long as yer a low level PC, yer right. Otherwise: "There was never any real danger."
mmadsen said:
And of those defences mentioned in this thread, only a handful fall into that "simple, cheap" category. Digging elaborate mazes and carving out multiple murder holes does not fall into the "simple, cheap" category. It falls into the "King-spends-mucho-effort-to-get-those-underlings-he-can-grab-to-do-the-work" category. Or perhaps the "Stumble-onto-abandoned-dwarven-stronghold" category. For the most part, this ain't gonna happen.
There are advantages to being small and Chaotic Evil. Crafting and maintaining organized defences isn't one of them.
As long as yer a low level PC, yer right. Otherwise: "There was never any real danger."
Re: Re: Re: Goblins as Bronzed Gods?
I've made the same point -- but there is that hand-full of simple, cheap defenses.
For subterranean creatures that already mine underground, carving some murder holes and arrow-slits does not seem complicated or expensive -- at least not to me.
I think of Goblins as exactly the guys who are going to leave nasty little traps (e.g. punji-stake pits) and attack you through holes in the walls so you can't hit back.
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