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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 22507" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p><strong>Re: Re: Re: How would you handle this?</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>According to the DMG, Slippers of Climbing give you a speed of 15. So, a Monk with a speed of 90 is still limited to a speed of 15 when using the boots to move on vertical surfaces. A halfling whose speed is increased from 20 to 40 with Expeditious Retreat is still limited to a speed of 15. It does not matter how fast the monk or halfling can pump their legs, the slippers still have a limit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fine, but he has to hang on. What prevents the Giant from just shrugging him off? The slippers? The magic might be fine against a typically stationary object like a wall, but a moving Giant who doesn’t want him there? If the magic does not work against oily, icy or slippery surfaces, imagine what it would do against a surface that moves away or attempts to knock the halfling off.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that you are not using a combat roll based on the Giant’s AC.</p><p></p><p>Grapple does use a combat roll. Tumbling, even a high DC 25 one does not.</p><p></p><p>Put another way, there is no “opposed roll” here. The Halfling is not using a combat ability to get to his perch and stay there, he is using an acrobatic skill (when using Tumbling) which ignores his opponent’s attempt to dislodge him immediately.</p><p></p><p>So, the halfling has the same chance of running up a Purple Worm’s back as a Giant’s back as a God’s back as a Human’s back. No difference since everything is based on the skill of the halfling and not the abilities of the opponent.</p><p></p><p>Grapple is perfect since it already takes into account size differential and lack of perfect knowledge of where a character is grappling. It really does not matter that the halfling is trying to climb up his back, the fact is that it REALLY is no different than trying to grab the Giant’s knee, his hair, his weapon arm, or any other attempt to grab the giant. Grabbing a character is covered by the grappling rules, hence, use them.</p><p></p><p>Now, I could see giving a grapple bonus to the halfling due to the boots helping him to hang on, but it should not be automatic if he makes a tumble roll. The giant should have a chance to prevent immediately.</p><p></p><p>This is kind of similar to the Tumble being broke threads and the reason that Song & Silence added a variant Tumble rule where the opponent gets a chance to use his abilities to still get an AoO against a Tumbler. There should be some form of “opposed check” (saving throw, something) that gives the defending character a chance to use his abilities and it should not just be based on the Tumbling skill of the halfling to climb up the Giant.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What?!?!?!?!?</p><p></p><p>This was a Frost Giant, right? 15 feet tall? So, his back ranges from 8 to 12 feet off the ground. And a 2.5’ tall halfling is supposed to jump up that high? Over three times his height?</p><p></p><p>At 6 foot tall, that would be the equivalent of me jumping straight up 20 to 29 feet off the ground.</p><p></p><p>Talk about what should be impossible. Jump should totally be out of the question.</p><p></p><p>Remember, even with Slippers of Climbing, it is only 15 feet up in 6 seconds. The Giant does not stand like a statue for that entire 6 seconds and wait the 3+ second for the halfling to get up there.</p><p></p><p>This screams for a grapple check.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let’s use a more realistic example. When was the last time I prevented my dog from jumping up on me? Oh yeah, tonight. She tries it a lot. From behind. From the side. Usually, although she tries and tries, she is unsuccessful unless she totally catches me unawares.</p><p></p><p>Same for the combat capable Giant. He should have a reasonable chance of stopping the halfling based on his combat abilities, not solely on the abilities of the halfling.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It seems like you are trying to really stretch it. Grapple is designed for grabbing and hanging onto an opponent. Tumbling and Jump are not designed for that at all.</p><p></p><p>The “logical” solution is to use grapple.</p><p></p><p>Jumping makes no sense whatsoever when you are discussing a halfling versus a giant’s back and Tumbling would be slightly ok to avoid a movement AoO if dropping on the Giant’s back from above, but it should do nothing to prevent the AoO that an unarmed attack on a creature provokes and it shouldn’t be used to help a halfling launch himself 8+ feet into the air.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fairly complex and ignores core rules.</p><p></p><p>It ignores the fact that you cannot grab and hold onto (i.e. grapple) an opponent without an AoO.</p><p></p><p>It ignores the fact that Tumbling only stops movement AoOs, not combat ones (like any unarmed attack which grabbing the Giant’s back should be).</p><p></p><p>It ignores the fact that some form of AC should be used to prevent a creature from grabbing another creature. All combat attack forms use some form of AC. The one you are proposing totally ignores that.</p><p></p><p>It ignores the fact that 3E has no facing, hence, the halfling really cannot run up the back of the Giant without the Giant simultaneously turning in his space and facing the halfling to prevent it.</p><p></p><p>It gives the halfling the same chance of doing this against any opponent since it does not take into account the combat abilities of the opponent.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think what is bothering you about using grapple is that the Giant will almost always kick the snot out of the halfling when doing it. But, that’s what Giant’s do.</p><p></p><p>You should not allow the description of the combat maneuver to take this out of the realm of combat and place it into the realm of skills. Skills are fine to perform certain tasks during combat, but they should not be used to grab onto and hold an opponent, even if the character is using a magical item to assist him. That should be a combat maneuver, just like tripping, overbearing, bull rushing, or any other form of non-weapon combat maneuver.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 22507, member: 2011"] [b]Re: Re: Re: How would you handle this?[/b] According to the DMG, Slippers of Climbing give you a speed of 15. So, a Monk with a speed of 90 is still limited to a speed of 15 when using the boots to move on vertical surfaces. A halfling whose speed is increased from 20 to 40 with Expeditious Retreat is still limited to a speed of 15. It does not matter how fast the monk or halfling can pump their legs, the slippers still have a limit. Fine, but he has to hang on. What prevents the Giant from just shrugging him off? The slippers? The magic might be fine against a typically stationary object like a wall, but a moving Giant who doesn’t want him there? If the magic does not work against oily, icy or slippery surfaces, imagine what it would do against a surface that moves away or attempts to knock the halfling off. Except that you are not using a combat roll based on the Giant’s AC. Grapple does use a combat roll. Tumbling, even a high DC 25 one does not. Put another way, there is no “opposed roll” here. The Halfling is not using a combat ability to get to his perch and stay there, he is using an acrobatic skill (when using Tumbling) which ignores his opponent’s attempt to dislodge him immediately. So, the halfling has the same chance of running up a Purple Worm’s back as a Giant’s back as a God’s back as a Human’s back. No difference since everything is based on the skill of the halfling and not the abilities of the opponent. Grapple is perfect since it already takes into account size differential and lack of perfect knowledge of where a character is grappling. It really does not matter that the halfling is trying to climb up his back, the fact is that it REALLY is no different than trying to grab the Giant’s knee, his hair, his weapon arm, or any other attempt to grab the giant. Grabbing a character is covered by the grappling rules, hence, use them. Now, I could see giving a grapple bonus to the halfling due to the boots helping him to hang on, but it should not be automatic if he makes a tumble roll. The giant should have a chance to prevent immediately. This is kind of similar to the Tumble being broke threads and the reason that Song & Silence added a variant Tumble rule where the opponent gets a chance to use his abilities to still get an AoO against a Tumbler. There should be some form of “opposed check” (saving throw, something) that gives the defending character a chance to use his abilities and it should not just be based on the Tumbling skill of the halfling to climb up the Giant. What?!?!?!?!? This was a Frost Giant, right? 15 feet tall? So, his back ranges from 8 to 12 feet off the ground. And a 2.5’ tall halfling is supposed to jump up that high? Over three times his height? At 6 foot tall, that would be the equivalent of me jumping straight up 20 to 29 feet off the ground. Talk about what should be impossible. Jump should totally be out of the question. Remember, even with Slippers of Climbing, it is only 15 feet up in 6 seconds. The Giant does not stand like a statue for that entire 6 seconds and wait the 3+ second for the halfling to get up there. This screams for a grapple check. Let’s use a more realistic example. When was the last time I prevented my dog from jumping up on me? Oh yeah, tonight. She tries it a lot. From behind. From the side. Usually, although she tries and tries, she is unsuccessful unless she totally catches me unawares. Same for the combat capable Giant. He should have a reasonable chance of stopping the halfling based on his combat abilities, not solely on the abilities of the halfling. It seems like you are trying to really stretch it. Grapple is designed for grabbing and hanging onto an opponent. Tumbling and Jump are not designed for that at all. The “logical” solution is to use grapple. Jumping makes no sense whatsoever when you are discussing a halfling versus a giant’s back and Tumbling would be slightly ok to avoid a movement AoO if dropping on the Giant’s back from above, but it should do nothing to prevent the AoO that an unarmed attack on a creature provokes and it shouldn’t be used to help a halfling launch himself 8+ feet into the air. Fairly complex and ignores core rules. It ignores the fact that you cannot grab and hold onto (i.e. grapple) an opponent without an AoO. It ignores the fact that Tumbling only stops movement AoOs, not combat ones (like any unarmed attack which grabbing the Giant’s back should be). It ignores the fact that some form of AC should be used to prevent a creature from grabbing another creature. All combat attack forms use some form of AC. The one you are proposing totally ignores that. It ignores the fact that 3E has no facing, hence, the halfling really cannot run up the back of the Giant without the Giant simultaneously turning in his space and facing the halfling to prevent it. It gives the halfling the same chance of doing this against any opponent since it does not take into account the combat abilities of the opponent. I think what is bothering you about using grapple is that the Giant will almost always kick the snot out of the halfling when doing it. But, that’s what Giant’s do. You should not allow the description of the combat maneuver to take this out of the realm of combat and place it into the realm of skills. Skills are fine to perform certain tasks during combat, but they should not be used to grab onto and hold an opponent, even if the character is using a magical item to assist him. That should be a combat maneuver, just like tripping, overbearing, bull rushing, or any other form of non-weapon combat maneuver. [/QUOTE]
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