How would you handle this?

[jontherev]

Here's a few combat questions. Let's say a halfling has boots/slippers of spiderclimb. Now, he wants to tumble and climb ONTO a frost giant's back and attack from this position. Would you simply use standard tumbling rules, using a dc 25?

And then, if this is successful, what happens? Is that giant denied dex vs. the wee one? I'd assume so.

Would the giant have a penalty to attacking the halfling (oops...the greatsword missed the halfling only to slice the spine of the giant)?

How does the giant remove the halfling, using standard grappling rules? Any penalties to the giant for this? After all, he'd be attacking someone he can't see, and in an awkward position in the middle of his back. Would this provoke an AoO from others while he's attacking his own backside? It seems like he'd have his guard down while attempting so unorthodox a grapple.

Also, would Expeditious Retreat effect the 15' climbing speed of the boots of SC (to 30')?

Thanks.

 

[Galfridus]

Here's a few combat questions. Let's say a halfling has boots/slippers of spiderclimb. Now, he wants to tumble and climb ONTO a frost giant's back and attack from this position. Would you simply use standard tumbling rules, using a dc 25?

I wouldn't; IMO, this is more akin to a grapple than anything else, and Tumble doesn't help you against AoOs caused when grappling. So first thing, the giant gets an AoO.

And then, if this is successful, what happens? Is that giant denied dex vs. the wee one? I'd assume so.

Would the giant have a penalty to attacking the halfling (oops...the greatsword missed the halfling only to slice the spine of the giant)?

How does the giant remove the halfling, using standard grappling rules? Any penalties to the giant for this? After all, he'd be attacking someone he can't see, and in an awkward position in the middle of his back. Would this provoke an AoO from others while he's attacking his own backside? It seems like he'd have his guard down while attempting so unorthodox a grapple.

IMO, this is getting into more detail than 3E supports, and opening up too many cans of worms. I might give a bonus to the halfling for the grapple, since he's not actually trying to restrain the giant, but it would still be a standard grapple check to do so.

Aha, the grapple rules provide a good way to handle this. The grapple check is used to actually hold the opponent; since the halfling isn't trying to do this, no grapple check is necessary.

I would not deny the Giant's Dex bonus; the movement of the giant will still disrupt the halfling. I probably would give a +2 circumstance bonus to hit. I would also not say that removing the halfling causes AoOs. Assuming the giant has the Str to break the Spider Climb, I would require a grapple check to grab the halfling and pull him free.

Also, would Expeditious Retreat effect the 15' climbing speed of the boots of SC (to 30')?
Thanks.

I would rule that the spell would double climbing speed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Here's a few combat questions. Let's say a halfling has boots/slippers of spiderclimb. Now, he wants to tumble and climb ONTO a frost giant's back and attack from this position.

Now, when you say "frost giant", you really mean "cave troll", right?

-Hyp.

 

[Altalazar]

I pretty much agree with the poster here, though I would allow an AoO versus the Giant by the rider, simply because of the awkwardness, and inherent advantage the rider has in this case.

It would be rather hard to get into that position in the first place, but once there, the Giant is actually somewhat at a disadvantage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Here's a few combat questions. Let's say a halfling has boots/slippers of spiderclimb. Now, he wants to tumble and climb ONTO a frost giant's back and attack from this position. Would you simply use standard tumbling rules, using a dc 25?

I would not use tumble at all. I would use grapple to see if the halfling can climb up. If he is unsuccessful, the giant merely swats him away (usually a very good chance) or knocks him off.

And then, if this is successful, what happens? Is that giant denied dex vs. the wee one? I'd assume so.

If successfully grappled, he would lose his dex bonus and not threaten the area around him. Size of grappler does not matter.

Would the giant have a penalty to attacking the halfling (oops...the greatsword missed the halfling only to slice the spine of the giant)?

He can attack with a light (for him) weapon.

Otherwise, he can always make an opposed grapple check to pummel the little guy.

No reason to give the little guy a bonus for being on his back. There is no facing in 3E.

How does the giant remove the halfling, using standard grappling rules? Any penalties to the giant for this? After all, he'd be attacking someone he can't see, and in an awkward position in the middle of his back. Would this provoke an AoO from others while he's attacking his own backside? It seems like he'd have his guard down while attempting so unorthodox a grapple.

One of the more traditional cinematic effects would be to bull rush the halfling into a nearby wall or the floor. Give him a reflex save to jump off, or he gets squashed. He can hang on if he wants, but the giant should continue to do it until the little pest is gone.

Also, would Expeditious Retreat effect the 15' climbing speed of the boots of SC (to 30')?

No. ER does not affect climbing speed.

 

[Conaill]

I would also use normal grappling rules -- sort of.

Step 1: Grab
melee touch attack with AoO from the defender

Step 2: Hold
The combatant automatically loses an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than the combatant is (but the combatant can still make an attempt to grab such a target, if that's all the combatant wants to do).

Step 3: Move In
This would normally provoke AoO's from bystanders (but not from the opponent). I'd allow a tumble check to prevent these here.


The giant's reaction may be to grab onto the halfling (he *can* do the opposed grapple check, and will presumably win quite easily) and pull him off. Spider Climb states "A creature with a Strength score of at least 20 +1 per caster level can pull the subject off a wall". (Just shaking the halfling off probably wouldn't work.)

If that doesn't work, he'll likely just go for the "grapple and squish" approach (which may actually be more likely to begin with). The giant won't be able to use his greatsword after the halfling's initial "grab and move in": only light weapons allowed in a grapple. At best, he'd get a 50-50 chance of hitting himself if he were to try that.

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: How would you handle this?

No. ER does not affect climbing speed.

It's not actually climbing though, it's considered movement. He's walking up the giant, not climbing.

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I must say that I dislike the use of grapple in this situation. It appears I'm alone on this though. I still think tumble makes more sense, using a DC of 25. Also, perhaps a successful jump of 5' or 10' to get on his back. Similar to tumbling through an opponent's square, here you are essentially doing the same thing except that you plan on landing on the foe instead of bypassing him. Why use grapple here? It shouldn't be too hard for a 2.5' halfling to jump on a giant, and using grapple would make it nearly impossible. Extreme example: when's the last time you swatted away a flea before he jumped on you? Besides that though, using grapple rules doesn't make logical sense. At least, not when there are two skills that make more sense, tumble and jump. If the poor halfling fails his tumble check, the giant is free to use grapple as his AoO, or swat him with his greatsword.

I think the Jump skill could determine the accuracy (i.e. whether or not he jumped on the back or not...a failed check means he landed on the ground somewhere). Tumble decides whether or not the giant gets an AoO on the 'lil lad.

As for how the giant removes the halfling, that would be a grapple. I think all giants have the necessary strength (24 for the boots/slippers?) to pick up the halfling, after a successful grapple attempt.

As for bonuses/penalties, give the halfling +2 to hit the giant, and the giant -2 to hit the halfling.

Pretty simple and uses core rules.

 

[Conaill]

Why use grapple here? It shouldn't be too hard for a 2.5' halfling to jump on a giant, and using grapple would make it nearly impossible. Extreme example: when's the last time you swatted away a flea before he jumped on you?

Actually, it *would* be easy. Note that I'm not suggesting the halfling try to wrestle with the giant, just do the "Grab" part of the grapple. And that should be an easy roll: it's a touch attack, and the halfling should get a +2 for size.

As for whether the giant should get an AoO, that's up to your own judgement. Note that tiny creatures normally provoke and AoO for attacking medium sized defenders. The same should hold for a small PC vs a large NPC. Tumble may help with that.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: How would you handle this?

It's not actually climbing though, it's considered movement. He's walking up the giant, not climbing.

According to the DMG, Slippers of Climbing give you a speed of 15. So, a Monk with a speed of 90 is still limited to a speed of 15 when using the boots to move on vertical surfaces. A halfling whose speed is increased from 20 to 40 with Expeditious Retreat is still limited to a speed of 15. It does not matter how fast the monk or halfling can pump their legs, the slippers still have a limit.

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I must say that I dislike the use of grapple in this situation. It appears I'm alone on this though. I still think tumble makes more sense, using a DC of 25. Also, perhaps a successful jump of 5' or 10' to get on his back.

Fine, but he has to hang on. What prevents the Giant from just shrugging him off? The slippers? The magic might be fine against a typically stationary object like a wall, but a moving Giant who doesn’t want him there? If the magic does not work against oily, icy or slippery surfaces, imagine what it would do against a surface that moves away or attempts to knock the halfling off.

Similar to tumbling through an opponent's square, here you are essentially doing the same thing except that you plan on landing on the foe instead of bypassing him. Why use grapple here?

Except that you are not using a combat roll based on the Giant’s AC.

Grapple does use a combat roll. Tumbling, even a high DC 25 one does not.

Put another way, there is no “opposed roll” here. The Halfling is not using a combat ability to get to his perch and stay there, he is using an acrobatic skill (when using Tumbling) which ignores his opponent’s attempt to dislodge him immediately.

So, the halfling has the same chance of running up a Purple Worm’s back as a Giant’s back as a God’s back as a Human’s back. No difference since everything is based on the skill of the halfling and not the abilities of the opponent.

Grapple is perfect since it already takes into account size differential and lack of perfect knowledge of where a character is grappling. It really does not matter that the halfling is trying to climb up his back, the fact is that it REALLY is no different than trying to grab the Giant’s knee, his hair, his weapon arm, or any other attempt to grab the giant. Grabbing a character is covered by the grappling rules, hence, use them.

Now, I could see giving a grapple bonus to the halfling due to the boots helping him to hang on, but it should not be automatic if he makes a tumble roll. The giant should have a chance to prevent immediately.

This is kind of similar to the Tumble being broke threads and the reason that Song & Silence added a variant Tumble rule where the opponent gets a chance to use his abilities to still get an AoO against a Tumbler. There should be some form of “opposed check” (saving throw, something) that gives the defending character a chance to use his abilities and it should not just be based on the Tumbling skill of the halfling to climb up the Giant.

It shouldn't be too hard for a 2.5' halfling to jump on a giant, and using grapple would make it nearly impossible.

What?!?!?!?!?

This was a Frost Giant, right? 15 feet tall? So, his back ranges from 8 to 12 feet off the ground. And a 2.5’ tall halfling is supposed to jump up that high? Over three times his height?

At 6 foot tall, that would be the equivalent of me jumping straight up 20 to 29 feet off the ground.

Talk about what should be impossible. Jump should totally be out of the question.

Remember, even with Slippers of Climbing, it is only 15 feet up in 6 seconds. The Giant does not stand like a statue for that entire 6 seconds and wait the 3+ second for the halfling to get up there.

This screams for a grapple check.

Extreme example: when's the last time you swatted away a flea before he jumped on you?

Let’s use a more realistic example. When was the last time I prevented my dog from jumping up on me? Oh yeah, tonight. She tries it a lot. From behind. From the side. Usually, although she tries and tries, she is unsuccessful unless she totally catches me unawares.

Same for the combat capable Giant. He should have a reasonable chance of stopping the halfling based on his combat abilities, not solely on the abilities of the halfling.

Besides that though, using grapple rules doesn't make logical sense. At least, not when there are two skills that make more sense, tumble and jump. If the poor halfling fails his tumble check, the giant is free to use grapple as his AoO, or swat him with his greatsword.

It seems like you are trying to really stretch it. Grapple is designed for grabbing and hanging onto an opponent. Tumbling and Jump are not designed for that at all.

The “logical” solution is to use grapple.

Jumping makes no sense whatsoever when you are discussing a halfling versus a giant’s back and Tumbling would be slightly ok to avoid a movement AoO if dropping on the Giant’s back from above, but it should do nothing to prevent the AoO that an unarmed attack on a creature provokes and it shouldn’t be used to help a halfling launch himself 8+ feet into the air.

I think the Jump skill could determine the accuracy (i.e. whether or not he jumped on the back or not...a failed check means he landed on the ground somewhere). Tumble decides whether or not the giant gets an AoO on the 'lil lad.

As for how the giant removes the halfling, that would be a grapple. I think all giants have the necessary strength (24 for the boots/slippers?) to pick up the halfling, after a successful grapple attempt.

As for bonuses/penalties, give the halfling +2 to hit the giant, and the giant -2 to hit the halfling.

Pretty simple and uses core rules.

Fairly complex and ignores core rules.

It ignores the fact that you cannot grab and hold onto (i.e. grapple) an opponent without an AoO.

It ignores the fact that Tumbling only stops movement AoOs, not combat ones (like any unarmed attack which grabbing the Giant’s back should be).

It ignores the fact that some form of AC should be used to prevent a creature from grabbing another creature. All combat attack forms use some form of AC. The one you are proposing totally ignores that.

It ignores the fact that 3E has no facing, hence, the halfling really cannot run up the back of the Giant without the Giant simultaneously turning in his space and facing the halfling to prevent it.

It gives the halfling the same chance of doing this against any opponent since it does not take into account the combat abilities of the opponent.


I think what is bothering you about using grapple is that the Giant will almost always kick the snot out of the halfling when doing it. But, that’s what Giant’s do.

You should not allow the description of the combat maneuver to take this out of the realm of combat and place it into the realm of skills. Skills are fine to perform certain tasks during combat, but they should not be used to grab onto and hold an opponent, even if the character is using a magical item to assist him. That should be a combat maneuver, just like tripping, overbearing, bull rushing, or any other form of non-weapon combat maneuver.

 

[jontherev]

Actually, it *would* be easy. Note that I'm not suggesting the halfling try to wrestle with the giant, just do the "Grab" part of the grapple. And that should be an easy roll: it's a touch attack, and the halfling should get a +2 for size.

As for whether the giant should get an AoO, that's up to your own judgement. Note that tiny creatures normally provoke and AoO for attacking medium sized defenders. The same should hold for a small PC vs a large NPC. Tumble may help with that.

Not so easy. Grapples provoke an AoO, and if that AoO deals any damage, you fail to even start the grapple. Giants don't miss much, so better try this only while he's flat-footed.