How would you handle this?

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but Expeditious Retreat gives an enhancement bonus to speed. That is different from the monk's speed. This is beside the point, but I wonder if they meant for the slippers to give speed/2 instead of the flat 15' (meaning halflings would only get 10'). Though, it does make sense that shorter characters should be able to travel vertically faster than their taller cohorts. If this was actual climbing, I would agree with you. Or even if it was the spell Spider Climb, since you are moving with both hands and feet.

This is irrelevant. The Boots have a limit of 15. It matters not that the movement speed of the character is increased with Expeditious Retreat, the movement speed of his boots is not increased. The enhancement is not cast on the boots, it is cast on the creature. The boots are increasing or decreasing whatever speed the creature has to a maximum of 15.

If the boots said Speed / 2, then you would be right. But, the boots do not say that. Only the spell says that.

I do not see why you are having so much difficulty with this.

If the character is Hasted, then he could climb higher in a round since he could use his speed for both the partial and normal action.

As for Spider Climb movement: the spell description says you climb at half your speed. Given that your feet get sticky, it seems reasonable to me that it incorporate enhancements to that speed. The DMG does say that the Slippers give you a 15' move, though. Personally, I would ignore that in favor of the spell desc (does a heavily armored gnome get a 15' climb move?), but by the rules it is always 15'.

How the spell works is basically irrelevant to how the magical item works.

If you change the Boot speed (which is explicitly defined), you should also change the fact that the hands are not required when using the item.

The point is that you either leave all items as be (the practical method), or you pick and choose which portions of which items are changed and which are not, or you change all items to correspond to their spells.

But, what a nightmare!

Where do you draw the line?

Boots of Haste can no longer be used in non-consecutive rounds because the spell does not give that ability. A Broom of Flying cannot be called to the user because the Fly spell does not have that ability.

Dispelling a Carpet of Flying allows a character to float towards the ground on it because the Fly spell does have that ability and the item says that it works just like a Fly spell. But, if the item does not say that it works just like the spell used to create it, then it works as per the description of the item, not as per the description of the spell.

Yes, the slippers DO prevent this. You need a 24 strength to pull off the halfling (20 + caster level 4=24). A giant bull with a 24 strength could buck the halfling off. A frost giant with 29 strength could not do this the same way, but would need to actually PULL him off. Moving surfaces wouldn't effect the slippers imo unless they shook with the force of 24 strength.

Again, the SPELL says this. The item does not. As far as the item is concerned, anyone who could lift the halfling off the ground should be able to lift him off a vertical surface.

No need for histrionics.

Sorry. I forgot the smiley face.

Actually, you are partially correct. A non-monk, non-boots of S&S-wearing halfling is limited to a total 5' (if he's 2.5' tall) high jump. And his hands would be 5' off the ground, not his feet. Still, I was going for cinematics here, so this would be sufficient. After all, the giant's rump is a perfectly nice landing pad. He could just walk the rest of the way.

Unrealistic cinematics is fine if you are in a movie like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. But, the non-magical / non-supernatural portions of the DND rules (with the exception of facing and a few other minor areas) are semi-realistic and the Giant's "rump" would still be about 6 feet off the ground. Kind of hard to get that high with his feet without some form of magic.

I guess he is now running up the Giant's leg from the calf.

This is a gray area. I know there's no facing in 3E, but things happen. You can't just prevent someone from doing this because 'there's no facing in 3E'. It should, as is, possible. And when this happens, unfortuneately, facing pops into play since the giant can't see his back. This is different than a rogue saying, "I walk up to the giant and stab him in the back."

How is it different? In both cases, you are attempt to target a specific part of the body. Sounds kind of weak.

While I'm here, how do you rule sneak attacks vs. giants? By the rules, no vital areas are in limbs, so no sneak attack. Apparently, veins, arteries, and achilles heel are not vital. So, by the letter of the rules, small pc's can only sneak attack giants with ranged weapons, or by using a technique like the one presented in this thread. Or, by using a reach weapon I suppose.

How do you handle impossible things?

Well, they are impossible. You cannot do it in the manner that you suggest. So, no sneak attack against extremely large creatures unless you can get up to sneak attack range. That's ok. No sneak attack against undead or contructs either. You cannot reach a vital area at all on them. So, impossible.

Pros and Cons of being small.

Medium sized creatures should have the same problem with huge humanoid creatures. Oh well. Who said that life (especially in the game) is fair.

 

[jontherev]

one more time...

KD,

I had a reply nearly complete, just to get kicked offline. So, I'll just have to try to summarize.

I'm having "difficulty" because the item my halfling possesses appears to do just what I've described. It was originally a pair of boots of Elvenkind that was enchanted later with the "of Striding" and "Spider-Climb" enchantments, at a healthy cost. So, according to the Striding description, all normal movement is doubled. That tells me 30' vertically or on ceilings. I'm sure you'll say the 15' movement trumps the doubling, but I don't believe it would.

As for your assumption on the strength needed to pull a wearer of Slippers of Spider-climbing off a wall, one could just as easily assume that he could not be pulled off at all since it is not mentioned. Unlikely, but true. It's only caster level 4, which does limit it somewhat. Compare the 24 strength (which many monsters of large size have), to the 20th level wizard who requires a 40 strength to rip off the wall!

It doesn't matter where (front, back, side) the halfling grabs onto the giant. It just matters whether or not he is successful. After grabbing onto him, he can then move up his legs, to his back. Even on top of his head. No tumbling would be allowed of course, so any movement more than 5' would provoke AoO's. A giant's legs are probably close to 1 to 2 feet diameter, so it shouldn't be too difficult to do with the boots. And this is where facing comes into play, once you are on his back. When the giant moves, you move with him, so he can never face you. Therefore, any allies in melee would get a flanking bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: one more time...

I'm having "difficulty" because the item my halfling possesses appears to do just what I've described. It was originally a pair of boots of Elvenkind that was enchanted later with the "of Striding" and "Spider-Climb" enchantments, at a healthy cost. So, according to the Striding description, all normal movement is doubled. That tells me 30' vertically or on ceilings. I'm sure you'll say the 15' movement trumps the doubling, but I don't believe it would.

Yes, actually I would say that. Why?

"all normal movement is doubled"

You consider Wall Walking normal movement?

Expeditious Retreat increases the running speed of the character.

Not the speed of his Flight.

Not the speed of his Swimming.

Not the speed of his magical Wall Walking.

It affects running and jumping only.

Ditto for Boots of Striding and Springing.

They do not increase the speed of any other movement other than normal walking/running and jumping. The fastest Monk in the world is limited to a 15 speed when using boots of climbing for walking up a wall. A Queen Formian with atrophied legs and a normal speed of 0 could walk up a wall at a speed of 15 if wearing boots of climbing because the magic of the boots allows her to move at a speed of 15.

As for your assumption on the strength needed to pull a wearer of Slippers of Spider-climbing off a wall, one could just as easily assume that he could not be pulled off at all since it is not mentioned. Unlikely, but true. It's only caster level 4, which does limit it somewhat. Compare the 24 strength (which many monsters of large size have), to the 20th level wizard who requires a 40 strength to rip off the wall!

The point is that you are giving an ability to the item that it does not have, merely because the spell which was used to create it has that ability. Ditto for the speed / 2.

Your assumption that a 24 Strength is needed is just as correct or incorrect as my assumption that a Strength which can lift the halfling off the ground is needed.

It doesn't matter where (front, back, side) the halfling grabs onto the giant. It just matters whether or not he is successful. After grabbing onto him, he can then move up his legs, to his back. Even on top of his head. No tumbling would be allowed of course, so any movement more than 5' would provoke AoO's. A giant's legs are probably close to 1 to 2 feet diameter, so it shouldn't be too difficult to do with the boots. And this is where facing comes into play, once you are on his back. When the giant moves, you move with him, so he can never face you. Therefore, any allies in melee would get a flanking bonus.

Any allies? Not likely.

Only the ally directly across from the halfling would get the bonus (or possibly ones in that direction with reach weapons).

That is one space in nine (or one hex in six).


Now, the next question.

If the Giant backs up to a wall and continuously pounds the halfling against the wall, can the halfling jump off the Giant's back, or must he walk off?

The item merely says that it allows vertical movement.

How does it work?

There apparently is no concentration involved, otherwise the item would be kind of useless. No, it must be a use activated item.

So, how do you "use activate" walking up a wall or on a ceiling? Unlike drinking a potion or wielding a sword, we have no real world comparison.

Well, one method is that one boot will not let go of the vertical surface it is attached to until the other boot is attached.

If this is the way it works, then the halfling cannot leap off. He can only “walk” off.


Now granted, this is magic.

So, we really do not know how it works. It might work that the halfling wills the boots to move, hence, the 15 speed limitation. In this case, it would seem reasonable that he could will the boots to let go and he could leap to safety.


But, the reason I dusted off the “how it works” question is that we really cannot take anything for granted. We don’t know. All we know is based on what the item indicates. Everything else is in the hands of a given DM.

So, we cannot say whether the halfling can jump off or not. We cannot say whether the Giant can pull him off or not.


What we can say is that the boots limit the speed of the character to 15 when using them to climb vertical surfaces. Why? Because the item explicitly states that. And, we can say that the Striding ability does not affect the Wall Walking ability because the Boots of Striding states that it "doubles her normal speed", not magical non-normal wall walking speed.

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: one more time...

Yes, actually I would say that. Why?

"all normal movement is doubled"

You consider Wall Walking normal movement?

Expeditious Retreat increases the running speed of the character.

Not the speed of his Flight.

Not the speed of his Swimming.

Not the speed of his magical Wall Walking.

It affects running and jumping only.

Ditto for Boots of Striding and Springing.

They do not increase the speed of any other movement other than normal walking/running and jumping. The fastest Monk in the world is limited to a 15 speed when using boots of climbing for walking up a wall. A Queen Formian with atrophied legs and a normal speed of 0 could walk up a wall at a speed of 15 if wearing boots of climbing because the magic of the boots allows her to move at a speed of 15.

Yes I would say that normal movement is anything that requires using the boots. So, no swimming or flying or levitating, but yes to wall walking. YMDV.

The point is that you are giving an ability to the item that it does not have, merely because the spell which was used to create it has that ability. Ditto for the speed / 2.

Your assumption that a 24 Strength is needed is just as correct or incorrect as my assumption that a Strength which can lift the halfling off the ground is needed.

You're right, but I never claimed otherwise. I'm not laying down the law here. I'm just trying to make sense of this. Your opinions are valid, just as mine are. One could go either way. I have agreed on several points with you. You seem to think this is all very black and white and are dumbfounded by my refusal to agree with every word you type. At least, that is how I've read your tone and some of your comments.

In the end, much of this would probably be a DM's call. I just wanted to know some other opinions out there. Anyone else care to chime in?

Any allies? Not likely.

Only the ally directly across from the halfling would get the bonus (or possibly ones in that direction with reach weapons).

That is one space in nine (or one hex in six).

You forgot, there's no facing in 3E. So, it is assumed that the giant is always facing his adversary (except in the case above where someone is attached to your back). Therefore, he always has someone flanking him.

Now, the next question.

If the Giant backs up to a wall and continuously pounds the halfling against the wall, can the halfling jump off the Giant's back, or must he walk off?

The item merely says that it allows vertical movement.

How does it work?

There apparently is no concentration involved, otherwise the item would be kind of useless. No, it must be a use activated item.

So, how do you "use activate" walking up a wall or on a ceiling? Unlike drinking a potion or wielding a sword, we have no real world comparison.

Well, one method is that one boot will not let go of the vertical surface it is attached to until the other boot is attached.

If this is the way it works, then the halfling cannot leap off. He can only “walk” off.

Now granted, this is magic.

So, we really do not know how it works. It might work that the halfling wills the boots to move, hence, the 15 speed limitation. In this case, it would seem reasonable that he could will the boots to let go and he could leap to safety.

But, the reason I dusted off the “how it works” question is that we really cannot take anything for granted. We don’t know. All we know is based on what the item indicates. Everything else is in the hands of a given DM.

So, we cannot say whether the halfling can jump off or not. We cannot say whether the Giant can pull him off or not.

What we can say is that the boots limit the speed of the character to 15 when using them to climb vertical surfaces. Why? Because the item explicitly states that. And, we can say that the Striding ability does not affect the Wall Walking ability because the Boots of Striding states that it "doubles her normal speed", not magical non-normal wall walking speed.

Yes, we can say that. We can also disagree. Thanks for your opinion of this topic KD.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: Re: one more time...

You forgot, there's no facing in 3E. So, it is assumed that the giant is always facing his adversary (except in the case above where someone is attached to your back). Therefore, he always has someone flanking him.

Why would the Giant always face his adversary if he can avoid a flank by not doing that?

Theoretically, since there is no facing, the Halfling never gives anyone a flank.

He is not on the opposite side of anyone since you cannot determine which side the Halfling is on (since you cannot determine which direction the Giant is facing).

The best way to handle this is probably to state that the Giant is facing in a specific direction each round and let the PCs attempt to move to the "opposing space", just like if the Halfling was in one of the spaces around the Giant normally.

The lack of facing in DND actually sometimes creates more problems than it avoids.