How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.

[FireLance]

Oneo f the neat things about forgotten Realms in 2nd ed was that they broke spells down into different levels of availability.

Might not work for everyone but spell selection is the first quick and easy fix.

Agreed, but if spell acquisition is still random, all you are doing is shifting the probabilities that you will get a wizard with several overpowered spells. If you want better control over the final result, you should just skip the probabilities and just either hardcode it into the rules that a wizard of level N can only have X rare and Y uncommon spells, or set guidelines for the DM so that he can know how close the wizards in his game are to the assumed baseline, and (if he wants to) can ensure that they do not stray too far from it. Such a system could actually tie in quite nicely with KM's proposal for powerful spells as treasure.

 

[CuRoi]

Agreed. However, high-level wizards are capable of bypassing hit points entirely using a variety of means. If the monster has a weak save, target it with save-or-lose or save-or-die. If it has strong saves but a poor touch AC, use a ranged touch spell that doesn't give a save; a few shots of Enervation will either kill it, or render it so horrendously debuffed that you can drop it with the save-or-die spell of your choice. Or blow some spell components and stuff it in a box with Forcecage. (Pro Tip: Use the "windowless cell" version and apply some biomechanics to prove to the DM that the victim will suffocate before the spell duration ends. Then ask how much XP catgirls are worth.)

Right - this all needs to be removed IMO. Killing targets through stat loss and level loss is too powerful. I'm trying to cook up my own version where stat and level loss is removed in favor of spells applying tiered conditions to targets. The conditions have finite limits and while they may ultimately incapacitate a character, they won't necessarily kill the character outright. Sort of 4e-ish / SAGA but not really

 

[korjik]

So in your example of how to deal with a wizard easily, the badguys ambush the PCs, get the drop on them, the wizard has no defensive buffs, they can easily walk right up to the wizard and ready their turns, and the wizard never moves away from the baddie. Seems a bit...specific? And it relies on a whole lot of things.

Also, how is the fighter flying?

Again, I've never seen this much effort go into "stopping" the rogue or the paladin or the ranger or the fighter. It's only with wizards.



Yes, but a person casts the spell.

I realize that all the bad guys have never heared of a wizard, and so never ever think to do anything to stop a wizard from having their spelly way with them....

Oh, wait, all my bad guys with a int of more than 3 know what a wizard is, and have various plans of varying usefulness to take care of the wiz. Come to think of it, that also applies to the fighter. Most bad guys are going to take some effort to figure out how to keep from being spelled on, and are going to take some effort out on how to keep from being hacked up. Yeah, it is generally easier to avoid the fighter, but so what?

Handling wizards is not that hard.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

in your example of how to deal with a wizard easily

Did I say easily?

Your statement was that ONLY magic can counter magic, and this is simply not he case.

 

[Hautamaki]

So people need to roll to determine whether or not the actually pick up their BAB increase this level, and everyone needs to roll to see how many skill points they actually get, and whether or not they actually "stick" to the skills they want to put them in, and then roll to determine how effective their feat training was?

No. This is a dumb rule suggestion, no bones about it.

I disagree. You roll for your HP every level, and you roll for your starting stats (in most games), so why not roll for the rest? In my games everything is rolled for at every level up, including feats and skill points. The randomization is part of the fun; it's what makes special characters special, it more accurately models real-world progression (you don't always know exactly when and to what degree you will master new skills), and it requires adaptation and ingenuity on the part of the players if they don't get the rolls they were hoping for.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In future terms of the 'group effort' though, do people hate clerics because they're the healers?

It would be immense bs to cry foul when the wizard uses a spell to help the fighter like bulls strength but thumbs up when the cleric casts raise dead no?

 

[FireLance]

In future terms of the 'group effort' though, do people hate clerics because they're the healers?

It would be immense bs to cry foul when the wizard uses a spell to help the fighter like bulls strength but thumbs up when the cleric casts raise dead no?

I don't think teamwork or group effort is the issue here.

Spellcasters (wizards, clerics, druids, etc.) casting spells to enhance their team mates is a step up from spellcasters only using their magic to enhance themselves.

However, some would consider giving non-spellcasters some ability to enhance themselves to be a step up from that. At least from 3e, there have been a few examples of such abilities, like barbarian rage and monk powers.

One way to close the gap between spellcasters and non-spellcasters is to increase the scope and strength of such abilities so that they reach fantastic levels (on par with spellcasting) while remaining (within the context of the setting) non-supernatural.

 

[JoeGKushner]

But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

In 4e, things are 'flat', but now instead of spellcasters we have roles.

Groups without a good leader capable of healing, regardless of the damage from the glass ninjas (aka strikers) are going to be in a world of hurt.

Does that make strikers 4e mages of old school?

 

[FireLance]

But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

In 4e, things are 'flat', but now instead of spellcasters we have roles.

Groups without a good leader capable of healing, regardless of the damage from the glass ninjas (aka strikers) are going to be in a world of hurt.

Does that make strikers 4e mages of old school?

I don't think it's as one-sided as that. Even parties that lack a leader role character have some access to healing both in and out of combat through the second wind action, spending healing surges, and possibly magic items. Each role also makes its own contribution to the party's survivability on a per encounter and on a per day basis.

Whereas leaders can heal in combat and enhance the efficiency of each healing surge both in and out of combat, strikers deal more damage, killing the opposition faster, and thus reducing the damage the party takes overall.

Defenders draw attacks and usually have higher defenses that cause their opponents to miss more often, again reducing the overall damage taken by the party.

Controllers may do a bit of both, with area attacks to deal damage to multiple opponents and kill them faster, or effects that hinder and deny actions to the enemy, both of which would reduce overall damage to the party.

So even if a party without a leader role character misses out on some healing abilities, it does make up for it in some way.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

T
Things that counter magic: Other magic. Nothing else.

Not so. A 6 year old with a rock can counter magic. The same cannot be said for melee or archery.