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How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.

I'm not sure that the problem isn't too heavily embedded into the system for a solution to be practical. There are several things to consider:

1. Save-or-Suck/Save-or-Die. Previous editions, a high level spellcaster had most of these spells available. The major reason not to use them often was that most opponents were going to make most of their saving throws (incidentally, a reason why no save spells like Otto's Irresistible Dance were so good), and might have Magic Resistance that wasn't easy to get through. You'd therefore expect high-level characters to pack a range of evocations which at least do half damage on a successful save. Unfortunately, 3rd edition inflated hit point totals compared to earlier editions. You can't reasonably revert to having saving throws as they were in 1e/2e/BECM and keep the higher hit point totals of 3e without making high level wizards very weak in combat - weaker, frankly, than lower level wizards whose SoS spells probably get through the inferior saves of their enemies, and whose enemies have lower hit point totals.

2. Actions and Initiative. Interrupted spellcasting used to be something that worried spellcasters a lot more. It's not just Concentration checks, but the alterations to the initiative system, that make it a lot less likely. If you revert to a segment based turn sequence, than you're probably going to have to rework a lot of action types, so a Fighter with a full attack sequence going is making multiple attacks, on different initiative points, and other actions are going to take a certain number of segments. The complication this involves should be obvious. I don't want to play Star Fleet Battles: the fantasy small unit action.

3. You'd probably want to do something about item creation. Easy access to item creation makes it much more practical for spellcasters to dominate combat and non-combat situations, either with their spells slots or with their pre-made scrolls and wands.

4. Something to reduce the versatility of spellcasters would be desirable. I think casters along the lines of the Dread Necromancer, the Warmage, the Beguiler, are probably the way to go. Limit the range of spells available to casters, and you're both reducing their ability to solve problems with spells and leaving more scope for people who rely on their skills to be necessary.
 

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saskganesh

First Post
a simple way is to just to step it up with magic-using opponents who use their spells intelligently, including magic protection spells. party wizards will be forced to match them, and a greater amount of their resources will be used on dispelling enemy spell protections while at the same time providing similar protections to the party. in other words, out of sheer necessity, the party wizard will have more dispel magics in his memory than fireballs.
 

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
A mix of limiting it to Dread Necromancer / Beguiler / Warmage is good, and it works best with also inducing Tome of Battle.

The main issue is the idea of a mundane/magical divide. In other words, we want fighters to be mundane and normal, but we let wizards get away with not being such.

That idea is the biggest reason the problem exists - and it's one that needs to go the way of the dodo. A mundane/supernatural divide amongst PCs doesn't work in RPGs.
 

Stormonu

Legend
An attempt at balancing the two already came out and met with mixed reactions: the Tome of Battle. Instead of nerfing wizards, cleric and druids, it buffed martial classes to the point where they could reasonably contribute at higher levels. They still didn't compare very well to a well-run caster, mind you, but at least they showed up to the ballpark.

The fan reaction was a mix of elation and horror- some people were delighted that melee characters were relevent again at above 8th level, while others labeled the book a gross attempt at power gaming and completely unbalanced.

I liked it quite a bit, personally.

I fell into the opposite camp, I thought it was the wrong direction, personally.

Cyclic initiative, scaling saves and removing some of the drawbacks of spells all helped to push 3E's spell system towards abuse (don't get me wrong, I do love 3E). I don't think you could reintroduce cyclic init back into 3E without adversely impacting the length of combat, and scaling DCs is too good of an idea to drop entirely. And it seems no one likes drawbacks in their RPGs anymore.

Personally, I'd go for longer casting time on most of the higher level spells - a whole round for 4th-6th, one additional round for each spell level past that for 7th to 9th (so 2 rounds for 7th, 3 rounds for 8th, 4 rounds for 9th). Of course, you'd have some spells that would be the exception (power words, for example), but they'd need some sort of drawback (damage to or a condition placed on the caster to make up for quicker casting time). Semi-Faustian magic has always been the way I wished D&D magic had been implemented. (Great power demands an equal cost - it'd open up so many adventure plots to cast say, Finger of Death so it doesn't take you out in the process as well).
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
How would I houserule wizards at high levels so that they were more on par with fighters? I'd bump up their damage spells considerably! Certainly playing from 6th to 15th level strong fighters could pump out much more damage (which couldn't be resisted or be immune to) than wizards could, and the wizards were feeling pretty incompetent when it came to ending fights when the fighters were around.

Arguably the wizards were bolstered in their utility abilities to counteract their lack of raw combat ability.

Now, if you felt that the real strength of wizards was in the save or die / save or suck spells, you could remove those (or make them all full-round casting spells, with the possible exception of power words which need a bit of love back). You'd also have to deal with the battlefield control spells - probably by reigning in the 'all or nothing' ones.

You also might want to make wizards and clerics more fragile, like in the old days, by denying CON bonus to hit points for caster classes.
 


ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
How would I houserule wizards at high levels so that they were more on par with fighters? I'd bump up their damage spells considerably! Certainly playing from 6th to 15th level strong fighters could pump out much more damage (which couldn't be resisted or be immune to) than wizards could, and the wizards were feeling pretty incompetent when it came to ending fights when the fighters were around.

Why are fighters around then? :hmm:

Another thought from house rules back in the old, old days - have magic with failure and backfire chances; the higher the level the worse it is. Make magic risky again!

The problem here is that, at least in my experiences, that doesn't deter wizards from casting the spells, it just makes them groan and get irritated when the spell backfires. A spell being "risky" doesn't make it balanced, it means the player has less fun when the penalties settle.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Even the suggestion I like most thus far has problems. A few people have suggested what essentially boils down to "Specialists Only."*

All well & good, but I can forsee an issue with certain spells needing to be turned into class abilities- detect and dispelling of magic- and a probable winnowing of the specialists classes actually played down to only a few.

Other things:
  1. Make spell disruption more possible
  2. Reduce the difficulty of saving throws. The easier it is to save against magic, the less of an impact it has on the game. Changing "DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability" to "DC of 5 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability" or "DC of 1d20 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability" would make quite an impact.
  3. Make spell resistance into a stat and increasable by feat/class choice





* the specialist rules might need to be revised.
 



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