How would you make demons really dark?

[Janx]

how to make demons darker?

Change the lighting.

demons shouldn't be seen. they live in the shadows. the lights go out when they approach.

Use more demonic posession

defile their targets before taking ownership

so distrust and discord through their posessed agents

 

[Celebrim]

It seems like we just had this conversation just a few weeks ago only we've replaced 'scary' with 'dark'.

I make note of the lack of concrete and evocative suggestions - which is no doubt why we are repeating this thread because the OP didn't get satisfactory answers last time either. Further, even the general assertions simply repeat vaguely what demons or devils are, as if the answer to the question was just, "Reiterate the themes you are already using."

I'm reminded of the study of artificial intelligence. For the first 30 or so years people studied artificial intelligence, everyone in the field assumed we were on the edge of a major break through, and that computers as intelligent as people were always just 25 years away. Finally, someone thought to stop and ask a very important question, "Hold on. One second here. Just what do we mean by 'intelligence'?" And someone else about the same time said, "Wait a minute. We keep acting like we are about to create human intelligence, but the truth of the matter is that we aren't even close to creating ant intelligence. Why do we think we are about to create something hard when we can't do anything easy?" Actually defining intelligence lead to the first real breakthroughs in artificial intelligence, even though it meant giving up the idea that we were close to creating human level AI.

Before you get too far into this thread, I think you'd do well to actually define 'dark'. If you could actually define 'dark', you might end up with some answers to the questions that wouldn't be just restating pop culture demonic tropes.

"fear is generated by *lack* of understanding."

Normally, 99.9% of the time, I'd agree with that statement. But no one in this thread is actually afraid. As I pointed out in the last thread, almost no one is actually afraid of the occult. It's a very rare sort of fear. Even psychologists would generally classify demonophobia as one of the rarer sorts of fears. On the contrary, the vast majority of people exhibit the opposite sort of emotion discussing occult things - demonophilia if you will. Part of the power of HP Lovecraft as a writer is that he was actually a very fearful man with many strong phobias - racism, ichthyophobia, mysophobia. But even he had no real fear of the occult per say.

 

[Umbran]

I have a fondness for flawed and/or tormented baddies, but when you're talking about truly dark and twisted villains, you need baddies that LOVE being bad. Demons should have a passion for their work of sowing death, destruction and corruption wherever they go.

Demons mean collateral damage--nothing should be safe when one is around. Target beloved NPCs or wipe out whole communities; spread blight, disease or madness; inflict lasting damage or effects that can't be healed with a simple spell or a couple of nights of rest; and have the demon do it all with a smile on its bloody maw of a face.

Basically, just pile on the stakes making it imperative that the heroes defeat the demon--and then make it a bloody, brutal fight to remember with the demon fighting to the last with every nasty trick it can think of.

One also needs to be careful that you don't render your demon into just a big monster. Make sure there's a difference between a demon and a dragon. If it becomes just brutal, bloody violence, that is something adventurers deal with every day. A demon's actions should have clear squick factor and psychological impact beyond gore and violence. Horror, in the literary sense, works best when it is focused on a personal level. I mean, sure, the demon's actions may eventually get around to causing the town to crumble (Needful Things style), but each particular bit of it is personal horror, not collective.

 

[Celebrim]

I have a fondness for flawed and/or tormented baddies, but when you're talking about truly dark and twisted villains, you need baddies that LOVE being bad. Demons should have a passion for their work of sowing death, destruction and corruption wherever they go.

I could pick on anyone in the thread, but I'll pick on you.

By making demons passionately love being vindictive and destructive and imposing their will on others, you are actually humanizing them. Honestly, you'll end up with a superhero who happens to be ugly and play for a different team, rather than a true monster. You'll end up with a Darth Vader (or even Freddie Krugar) character, where, even though they are the baddie, the audience still identifies with them and admires their brutality, power, and so forth as a type of 'cool'. You'll know more end up with something scary than the Joker is scary. Once again, I assert you'll not create a queasy fear of evil, terror, or any other horrific sensation. Instead, you'll create fascination and fetishization. You'll end up with a heel that every one wants to see do a face turn while still being its brutal self. You'll end up with exactly the slasher movie vibe that the OP said he wanted to avoid. Afterall, in every slasher movie, it's ultimately the monster that is the protagonist in the long run.

 

[Janx]

Before you get too far into this thread, I think you'd do well to actually define 'dark'. If you could actually define 'dark', you might end up with some answers to the questions that wouldn't be just restating pop culture demonic tropes.

I thought I did that. Albeit a bit tongue in cheek.

Dark is the absence or scarcity of light

I do think you have a good point, but I was stuck in smart alec mode.


I suspect dark is related to scary, but not entirely the same thing. Much as dark humor is funny, but not entirely the same as funny.


So if Scary/fear is:
things that jump out at you
bugs or spiders or snakes
blood, slime, guts, ooze
moments of powerlessness
undesired change
heights
danger with unknown details
something new
things moving in the background/behind you, just out of sight

Then Dark would take those things farther, in a "I didn't think you'd go that far" kind of way. Disturbing imagery would probably fit. Bugs crawling out of every orifice, and we mean every.

I think elements of depravity would score more Dark points than disgusting. The "get it off me" kind of icky stuff isn't dark scary. The guy who kept you in a hole in his basement and made you lotion up so he could make a suit out of your soft skin ranks higher on the Darkometer. I assume I am not thinking Dark Enough, but hopefully the gist is there to jog a DarkMeister into better ideas.

 

[Janx]

Some other ideas as the DarkMobile drives around my head.

Consider phrases like "inner demons" or "tormented by demons"

what if mental illnesses or depression or PTSD were actually the work of demons, weakening a soul (or the results from eating on it).


Or classic demonic possession signs:
horrible stench
markings/injuries on the body
lost time
sleep walking
sleeping a lot


Or consider the "mother kills kids" scenario. A lot of times, the mother is convinced the kids are evil and must be killed (part of the post partum depression thing or something).

What if she was right?

What if the kids are saved, and get older and the demon awakens?

What if you leave ambiguity on whether the kid is messed up because mom tried to kill him, or the kid IS evil and the mom failed to kill him?

 

[Morrus]

Yeah; I'm not so much going for "disgusting" though.
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION], I wish I could precisely define it. It's an "I'll know it when I see it" type of thing; the way The Omen made me feel, as opposed to the way Hellraiser made me feel. Unfortunately, I can't, so the best I can do is throw it out there and see what comes back.

 

[Celebrim]

I thought I did that. Albeit a bit tongue in cheek.

Dark is the absence or scarcity of light

You did, which is why I chose not to pick on you. Because you were in your tongue and cheek answer I think more on track than anyone else.

I do think you have a good point, but I was stuck in smart alec mode.

Don't worry. My good points are usually obscured by the fact I'm stuck in pretentious know-it-all mode.

It's particularly bad in this case, because to be perfectly honest I don't want to help the OP even though I could. I don't want to help the OP because I know that people will use what I tell them to increase either demonophobia (which isn't amusing, no, not even if it is Jack Chick) or demonophilia (which is even less amusing). So I'm dropping a bunch of hints and scorn rather than actually doing the one thing that usually justifies letting me stay in a thread - the fact I'm usually actually helpful (or trying to be).

I suspect dark is related to scary, but not entirely the same thing. Much as dark humor is funny, but not entirely the same as funny.

Since I'm feeling a bit guilty by the fact I'm being unhelpful, I'll go ahead and at least answer my own challenge: dark is the theme that evil is in control over the world and will triumph over good. That is to say, dark is a metaphor for evil and light for good, so if you want something to be darker what you do is deny the presence or power of good.

 

[Janx]

Since I'm feeling a bit guilty by the fact I'm being unhelpful, I'll go ahead and at least answer my own challenge: dark is the theme that evil is in control over the world and will triumph over good. That is to say, dark is a metaphor for evil and light for good, so if you want something to be darker what you do is deny the presence or power of good.

Having just finished Wolfenstein: The New Order, I'd say that's pretty dark. Nazis won.

In a Modern setting, imagine if the Demons were actually in control. Corporations are people because the Demons are behind the Corporations and have maneuvered things to empower them.

Corporations really are soul sucking workplaces.

The Oil Companies really do want to pollute the world and block the sun with the smog clouds.

Privatization of prisons is putting souls into demon hands to torture.

Corporate Jingles are the original meme, and are designed to infect minds to bend them to be positively disposed toward a corporate brand. modern memes are the same concept with subliminal programming built in. YouTube is working to infect every mind in the world.

Pepsi and Coca Cola are seeking to pursue Gluttony by enticing everyone to over indulge. Even the diet drinks aren't (hence why you only see fat people drinking diet pop).

Not to get actually political here, just showing how far the Demonic Corporate Conspiracy could be taken.

 

[Celebrim]

Not to get actually political here, just showing how far the Demonic Corporate Conspiracy could be taken.

Actually, no, now I'm going to pick on you. First, because you are actually getting political but you just denied to yourself what is obvious, and secondly because your view of the world is not more dark. What you've actually done is clearly delineated the bad guys, making opposition to those things good and making the problem solvable and opening up at least the potential for victory. What you should be looking at is how easily this analogy came into your head, and how easily it might fit with how you already look at the world. You're actually creating a world view for yourself filled with hope.

Dark would go much further. It would suggest that not only are all those things exactly as you say that they are, but that all the opposition to those things are also being run by the demonic conspiracy for their own demonic ends. It would suggest that the whole of political strife exists solely to trick people into doing first one thing then another to further the interests of the demons. So for example, you were motivated to repeat anti-corporatist memes, not because the corporations are actually the good guys, but that a world in which even all that you said was true, if the corporations won and created that world it would be less dark and better than is actually intended. The goal isn't to create a world nearly as bright as is suggested by your post, but the worst of all possible worlds, having all the evils you postulate but none of the redeeming features of that world. That is, all that, but also a world with no privileged status to hope to obtain to, no wealth or comforts resulting from industry for anyone to share in, everyone always desiring to being gluttonous but having no food to indulge in, everyone always in a state of heightened lust, but lacking any object for that lust, and so forth. In the world you postulate, there is at least room for the villains to enjoy themselves. But the truly demonic desires not even the villainous to find any joy, hope, or comfort because even those are shreds of surviving good shining like little lights in the darkness.

True evil has been portrayed a couple of times in literature. Tolkien does it at several points. The world where Sauron triumphs is a world of misery for its own sake. In the book 1984, Orwell pretty well captures the notion of evil triumphant - misery exists for its own sake. There is no big brother, no ruling caste, no anyone who is profiting from the horror. Everyone is captured in it. It's not perfectly horrific and dark, several features of the book at the end suggest a horrific sort of happiness is possible even in the darkness and that the social order described ultimately collapses, but it comes reasonably close.