D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[Raduin711]

And not worry if old fans of Dark Sun were mad or not.

I think that perhaps this could be put in a different way that wasn't so inflammatory.

 

[Spatula]

Druids were tied to the spirits of the land, not elements at all.

Yes I know, that doesn't change that their spells were based on the element(s) of their guardiand lands.

Only two or three of the 14 different adventures dealt with dragons or avangions.

Freedom - witness the slaying of Kalak (and yay for adventures where you stand around and watch the novel characters do important stuff)
Road to Urik - tie-in with the 2nd novel... I honestly don't remember this one.
Black Flames - 7th? level PCs kill a dragon invented for the adventure.
That one where the PCs rescue an avignon from Urik's templars.

I think I stopped buying DS adventures at that point.

 

[Raduin711]

Yes I know, that doesn't change that their spells were based on the element(s) of their guardiand lands.


Freedom - witness the slaying of Kalak (and yay for adventures where you stand around and watch the novel characters do important stuff)
Road to Urik - tie-in with the 2nd novel... I honestly don't remember this one.
Black Flames - 7th? level PCs kill a dragon invented for the adventure.
That one where the PCs rescue an avignon from Urik's templars.

I think I stopped buying DS adventures at that point.

Road to Urik was similar to the accompanying novel as well. After the fall of Kalak, Hamanu moves to fill in the vacuum. The novel covers Rikus leading an army of gladiators and templars against the invading army, and ultimately against Hamanu (a fight Rikus loses) The adventure covers the warfare involved, with players in the thick of it. (but doesn't bring the players toe-to-toe with Hamanu however.) Eventually the third adventure in the series diverges from the novel's storyline IIRC.

 

[Sitara]

They invented a dragon for the adventure??

Anyhow, does anyone know the eventual plans for the setting? what was supposed to happen anyhow? i recall nibeny and hamanu were two of the most powerful sorceror-kings. Nibenay was also most advanced in his dragon form and was also the focus of the Dark Sun 2 computer game.

 

[Najo]

@Najo: that was a fantastic post. I want you to run a darksun pbp. Now.

One thing; was Borys as a Dragon ever statted out? And could he grant spells like the other Sorceror-Kings?

@Raduin:Yep, Adnd2e druids could shapeshift into animal forms. They did have that annoying level cap but I doubt anyone ever enforced it...including the designers themselves in their own games. *rolls eyes* Didin't you ever play the baldurs gate/Icewind dale computer games?

I wish I had the time to do something like that. I really liked running Dark Sun. Right now I am too busy building our Retail and Internet business and working on the IP for our product we have in the works.

Borys as a Dragon was stated twice I know of. Once in the original boxed set and later in Valley of Dust and Fire. Technically, the level 30 dragon transformation in Dragon Kings is the same as Borys. Each functions a bit different. Also, in Valley of Dust and Fire, it details Borys citystate lair at the heart of the Silt Sea and the Dray warrior cult that serves him. Dray are dragonmen (that look more like genetic experimented on dragon-humans than the dragonborn in 4e btw) but I don't remember if Borys can give them spells. My guess is his madness makes him unable to have priests. I am going off memory here though. I do own all the Darksun books but can't easily reference them as I am working right now. If someone tells me where to reference I can confirm any info I have wrong.

 

[Najo]

Yes I know, that doesn't change that their spells were based on the element(s) of their guardiand lands.

Fair enough. Though their class powers weren't elemental based. If done now I would take them more into nature/ spirit of the land connected. Give them different spells.

Freedom - witness the slaying of Kalak (and yay for adventures where you stand around and watch the novel characters do important stuff)
Road to Urik - tie-in with the 2nd novel... I honestly don't remember this one.
Black Flames - 7th? level PCs kill a dragon invented for the adventure.
That one where the PCs rescue an avignon from Urik's templars.

I think I stopped buying DS adventures at that point.

Arcane Shadows had an avangion in it too. Road to Urik doesn't really have a dragon in the sense of dealing with Transformation Rituals. Hamanu could make a appearance like he does in the novel and kill everyone. But he is the one with the different transformation (even though he techinically is a dragon) he looks lionesque.

 

[Najo]

Road to Urik was similar to the accompanying novel as well. After the fall of Kalak, Hamanu moves to fill in the vacuum. The novel covers Rikus leading an army of gladiators and templars against the invading army, and ultimately against Hamanu (a fight Rikus loses) The adventure covers the warfare involved, with players in the thick of it. (but doesn't bring the players toe-to-toe with Hamanu however.) Eventually the third adventure in the series diverges from the novel's storyline IIRC.

Ok, that is right. That third adventure is where the avangion shows up.

 

[Najo]

They invented a dragon for the adventure??

Anyhow, does anyone know the eventual plans for the setting? what was supposed to happen anyhow? i recall nibeny and hamanu were two of the most powerful sorceror-kings. Nibenay was also most advanced in his dragon form and was also the focus of the Dark Sun 2 computer game.

Well, there are a number of major changes that occur in the novels. I don't want to ruin them so highlight the black text to reveal the spoilers if you want:

* Over half of the Sorceror Kings/ Queens are killed
* The dragon is killed (in a silly manner too, with black goo leaking out of a sword used by a 18th level gladiator) - I mean, come on, borys was nearly 1000 years old and a level 20 wizard, 20 psionicist and 10 dragon with a warrior cult and a fortress lair guarding the imprisoned sorceror-defiler Rajaat.
* Freedom was brought to many of the city states. No more slavery.
* Sources of water and forests were found in the lands beyond the mountains.
* Halflings were revealed as the pregenitors of Athas and held the key to psionics and the bio psionic artifacts that started popping up everywhere. Think organic cybernetics with psionic powers.
* An undead Dragon King was found beneath the ruins of an old citystate. He was killed by the other Champions of Rajaat and rose to replace the killed dragon, Borys.

* It seemed many of the changes were to bring Dark Sun into line with "normal" D&D. By removing the overwhleming evil rulers, adding in a more forests and water, the bio artifacts replaced the low magic and metal and gave it a "edge" (though a stupid one, the way most of the artifacts were), getting rid of the slavery and adding more heroic adventure.

The end result was that Dark Sun was no longer Dark Sun. Even the look was ruined. Brom's art is perfect for Dark Sun and the revised setting didn't use it. They even changed the cool logo. It was like TSR's goal was to ruin everything good about the Dark Sun setting that made it such an original and intersting setting.

Someone said earlier that Dark Sun was the Mad Max of D&D. They nailed apocolyptic fantasy better than anyone. This is very true. Unfortunately, TSR played it safe instead of pushing Dark Sun further into the areas that made it stand out from the other D&D settings. Dark Sun started off more like Road Warrior / Conan the Barbarian and ended up Beyond Thunderdome/ Conan the Destroyer.

 

[outsider]

My temptation would be to make it a standalone game rather than a D&D setting. It's different enough from standard D&D that you don't want to have players assuming they can bring things in from various splat books, nor is it fair to sell D&D players on a setting where they can't even play some characters they built with nothing but the player's handbook. It might not be good for sales to take the D&D name off of it, but I think it would be quite beneficial for the game otherwise. I'd still use alot of the D&D mechanics for it though.

As far as the setting goes, I'd definitely set it in the time period of the original boxed set. All the great things that Rikus, Sadira, Agis, and crew accomplished were great stories. Problem is, the characters in those stories should have been the player characters. If you are running a heroic Dark Sun game, that's the kind of thing the players could have made their goals. Sucked to see npcs accomplish it all, ultimately leaving you nothing interesting to do. Even if you are playing a non-heroic campaign it was far more interesting to play in an environment full of slavery and sorceror kings. I'd basically just retcon out everything those npcs accomplished, giving the players the options to try and do it themselves, or to leave things as they are and try to profit from it somehow.

I'd also get Brom back to do the art.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

I agree with Werebat:
Half giants are BIG, 3.5 Thrikreen change looks silly! LOL, it's obvious half giants should be Large, and current thri-kreen look too cartoonish.

I agree with Najo:
Changes to Dark Sun were ridiculous, absolutely wrecked and neutred the setting. So I totally ignore ‘em! We need a retcon to scrub it all back to first boxed set.

The history of Athas should be left deliberatly unknown, or confusing, that makes it much better, actually: anything maybe true, PCs must not know the history, or be sure of anything, except their current status in the world. That's th emsitake they did with 2nd boxd set, novels, and also with the Forgotten Realms. Giving too much information wrecks a setting that relies on mystery, wonder, suspense and fear.


Kamikaze Midget,

I don’t know the exact 4th ed rules for “free” or “reserve" casting (whatever it’s called) for wizards (ie for casting every round for camparison to warlocks).

My problem with warlocks is, their eldritch blast, an arcane effect, is free use per round and is pretty damned potent….that would be a problem, you see? Evil warlocks would *have* to be Defilers. I can see elemental powers perhaps at work here, but their potent eldritch blast….arcane magic…*shrugs*??

Same with monks, monks would really break Athas's feel, because they don’t need gear and it’s impossible for such a tradition of learning to be passed on generation to generation for many folk except perhaps templars/nobles?

I don’t think warlocks & monks should *totally* not exist, but they’d have to be very carefully controlled. I.e. mostly kept as NPCs, or you’d need to work on them to prevent their domination of the setting. Compare a PC monk to fighter on Athas, it’s no contest, the monk in very item-poor world is grossly better.

Right. All mages already suffer socially; making the "good" ones weaker than the other classes mechanically just means no one would ever play a mage.

*GOOD!* Arcanes are meant to have problems, preservers especially, that’s why Dark Sun is so different and it’s a good thing! Read the books/boxed set. Defilers are more powerful than preservers, no two ways about it, that's why the defilers won. Chosing to be a preserver does mean you are weaker: tough!! Deal with it

It also means that, if folk know you are a preserver and aren’t homicidial, they may let you live…for example: : a druid who understands you are a preserver, an enemy of defilers, that you don’t harm the land, is more likely to be an ally than enemy. And making allies or at least, preventing attacks, is very valid on Athas, as survival is the main thing, not "moral heroics". If you can survive AND do moral heroics, then you are indeed, a hero.

By comparison, everyone is out to kill defilers, with the exception of folk who secretly employ them (like Sorceror Kings), or evil creatures.
Defilers and Preservers’ differences are vital plot elements of Dark Sun games. Remove that, and again, your back to turning the game setting into mess.

Things do not have to be equal, that doesn't make them "bad".



PS.
sorry for typos in previous post, sigh.