HP Threshold Alternatives

[GX.Sigma]

OK, so the first packet's "current HP" threshold was kind of lame, and the latest packet's "maximum HP" threshold is even worse. What alternatives could we have?

The problem is that it's cool for spells like sleep or finger of death to just automatically sleep or kill some random goblin, but it gets pretty lame if you can just insta-kill (or hold, or charm, or turn) the level 35 solo half-troll half-scro zombie dragon at the end of the dungeon. The HP threshold (and formerly HD threshold) solves this problem, but introduces problems of its own, such as metagame thinking.

What if the target got a bonus based on their hit dice, like each HD gets them +1 to their save? So a kobold would have +1, a hobgoblin would have +2, and a troll would have +7. That way it makes these spells less effective against higher-level or bigger creatures, while not making it so abrupt.

 

[Paraxis]

For solo type monsters I would let them have a special rule that lets them save twice a round (one at the start of their turn, one at the end), or give them advantage on all saves.

For charm spells you gain advantage on the save vs the spell if the caster or his/her team has injured you this encounter.

For other spells and effects I like the first h.p threshold mechanic.

Bonuses based on HD is not in line with the flat math ideas it is basicly the 3.5 save bonuses.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Bonuses based on HD is not in line with the flat math ideas it is basicly the 3.5 save bonuses.

I meant just for the "threshold" spells.

 

[Li Shenron]

OK, so the first packet's "current HP" threshold was kind of lame, and the latest packet's "maximum HP" threshold is even worse. What alternatives could we have?

The problem is that it's cool for spells like sleep or finger of death to just automatically sleep or kill some random goblin, but it gets pretty lame if you can just insta-kill (or hold, or charm, or turn) the level 35 solo half-troll half-scro zombie dragon at the end of the dungeon. The HP threshold (and formerly HD threshold) solves this problem, but introduces problems of its own, such as metagame thinking.

What if the target got a bonus based on their hit dice, like each HD gets them +1 to their save? So a kobold would have +1, a hobgoblin would have +2, and a troll would have +7. That way it makes these spells less effective against higher-level or bigger creatures, while not making it so abrupt.

I don't particularly like your suggestion but I think you are right in raising the problem.

We don't want high level monsters and BBEG being insta-killed with a 1st-level spell, but I think it's also lame if some spells become useless at higher levels. This is currently the case with a couple of spells (Bane and probably another one...), because IIRC all other spells using a HP threshold work in such a way that targets above the threshold only get lesser effects, but still get some so the spell never becomes useless. -> good

Then there are still some spells which do become useless, e.g. Sleep -> bad

I kind of liked the idea of a "current HP" threshold because it opened up interesting tactics and scenarios (both for the PCs and the monsters, of course) but it is understandable that others don't like the idea at all.

However, since Hit Dice are still used (and pretty easy to check) in the monsters' write-ups, I don't see any reason why "maximum HP" should be used instead of a HD threshold.

Both ways work but achieve slightly different results:

- maximum HP means that in a game where the DM rolls monsters' HP, you never know if spell X is going to affect that Troll or not... because you don't know its HP since they are not always the same! You may cast spell X against a group of Trolls and affect only some of them [good if you like variety]

- in a game where DM uses default HP per monster, all Trolls are affected by spell X the same way [good if you lie consistency]

Then a HD threshold works pretty much the same as having default HP (the second case above), unless the DM changes the number of HD of some of the Trolls. The point here is that the DM doesn't actually have to really lower/increase the HD and reroll HP (in 3ed, changing HD of a monster means to recalculate everything, ack!! increasing is a pain, lowering is a true nightmare!), she can just decide to override the current HD value and say "Troll #1 has +1HD, Troll #2 has -HD" without actually changing any other number, only for the purpose of bringing in variety in spell effects and such.

So perhaps it depends on how each DM prefers, especially given how you are going to keep track of HP during a battle...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Part of the question is this: which side of the screen should the solution be on?

If you bake something into the spells, then you just need to design each spell with some sort of breaking point in mind, and the breaking point should reflect that division between a Solo or Elite and some random bugbear, which is always going to be pretty metagame. The difference between a goblin and a goblin leader is that one is slightly more powerful than the other.

If you bake something into the monsters, you don't need to worry about metagaming spells, but you do need to worry about re-printing that ability on each monster that is "meant to" be used as a Solo or Elite. You're doing this anyway with the Solo or Elite designation, but due to the variety of effects you'll be covering, the ability needs to be very broad.

Personally, I kind of like the following idea:

Any normal spell that can affect your actions (such as Sleep or Hold) is something that can be counteracted. On each round, a creature gets a save, and other creatures can grant them a save by an assist. Each spell effect has certain actions that can counter them: you can wake a sleeping person, or break the enchantment on a held person by inflicting some pain, or a charmed individual is disturbed if you say their name backwards, then forwards, then split in half and with the vowels flipped, or whatever (and anyone can do this -- it is a weakness of the spell itself). You can break it yourself with willpower over short amounts of time, and you can have other people help you break it easily (what else are minions for?)

That's in general.

There ARE spells that can render these effects permanently, that aren't so easy to counter-act. These may be the ritual versions of these spells, and will require a bit of material from the creature to be affected, as well as possibly odd delivery methods (think of the poisoned apple in Snow White, or of how a voodoo doll stereotypically can bind limbs). In game terms, these are more plot points than spell effects: a witch can impose an eternal sleep on the princess, but it's not so easy as chanting and spinning around a bit. It's expensive, time-consuming, and requires some prep work. They've also got level limits (nothing greater than your level!) and potential mundane solutions baked into the spell (you can't put anyone to sleep who wears silver around their neck).

So, then you have the BBEG. They're the red dragon sitting on their hoard with the princess tied up. And if the PC's want to go in there guns blazing and slay the critter with swords and lightning bolts, that's awesome.

But if the PC's want to use a more subtle tact...to try and trick the dragon into offering up one of its scales so that they can try and negate its fighting power...that's kind of awesome, too. Only, instead of the action-packed violence of the climax, it's tense Charisma checks and counter-bluffs and mind vs. minds. Rather than whittling down its HP to kill it, the party is trying to achieve trust to perform some magic on it. Instead of a climactic battle, we have a climactic conversation talking with it, or a climactic exploration trying to sneak around it, which is part of how you support those three pillars.

Other classes should also have access to these things. These are things that should be baked into ability checks. If a sneaky rogue (or the lightly armored fighter) wants to be a super-assassin like that, they SHOULD be able to KO the dragon in one hit. If a silver-tongued rogue (or a persuasive bard or paladin) wants to try and talk down the dragon, they SHOULD be able to.

You don't want to fight the dragon? Awesome. But you're going to have SOME climax with the thing. It's a multifaceted threat. And you can't just walk up to it and chant some words and have it be over. At least, not until you've already had some OTHER climax with it, if that's really what you want.

 

[Underman]

Not very familiar with the hp threshold mechanics, so here are possibly stupid half-baked ideas:

Some spells don't fail if creature's hp exceeds the threshold. Instead the spell is trying to work its way but the creature is resisting. Spell is triggered when creature's hp are reduced below the threshold. (This can still lead to metagaming though, but maybe less so)

Outside of combat, a creature's hp threshold is lower than actual hit points. Strategic use of Jedi Mind Trick can charm the unwary guard, but not so easily once combat commences. You can ambush a sleeping monster, but it shrugs off the same effect once its adrenaline gets going and it's fighting for blood.

 

[slobo777]

Some spells don't fail if creature's hp exceeds the threshold. Instead the spell is trying to work its way but the creature is resisting. Spell is triggered when creature's hp are reduced below the threshold. (This can still lead to metagaming though, but maybe less so)

I like this one - it gives the players a chance to recover an otherwise lost spell. It prevents the need for the magic user to have to wait, they can throw down a combat-ending effect on the off-chance, and the rest of the team makes a difference to it succeeding or not.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't see the value of hp thresholds at all. Of course a low-level spell should not be instakilling powerful opponents, but if I wait around and learn Disintegrate, when I shoot that at someone I expect them to be disintegrated. Even the save that it allows is pretty dubious.

If high level characters survive SoDs it should be because they have good defenses as characters that they earned; high save bonuses, rerolls, other things of that ilk. The spells do not need to have any caveats built into them.

 

[Ellington]

Since monsters have specific levels now, I don't see why we couldn't just base it off that.

"Monsters that are X or more levels below you do not get a saving throw."

Simple and straightforward. Most of the time players will have some sort of idea as to how powerful monsters are, anyways, as opposed to specific HP scores. It might feel a bit "gamey", though.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Personally... I'd rather they just do what they first offered as an idea way back at the beginning of talking about D&DN... the level slot (times 2) you use to cast a spell tells you how powerful that spell is compared to the hit dice of the monster receiving it. Monsters with HD way above or way below the level slot x2 are either immune or automatically suffer effects... those within a few levels above or below require saving throws (possibly also using Adv/Disad)

So for instance...

The basic range of a standard saving throw for a particular spell slot (times 2) is between 2 hit dice below and above. For example... a spell cast from a 5th level spell slot has a basic effective range of 8 to 12 HD. This is because a 5th level slot times 2 equals 10, +/- 2 HD equals 8 to 12. Any monsters between 8 and 12 HD make standard saves to counter or reduce effect.

Monsters outside these ranges for a certain amount of HD might receive Advantage or Disadvantage on their save. Perhaps another +/- 2 HD? So for that 5th level spell slot... monsters with 6 or 7 HD roll their save with Disadvantage, those with 13 or 14 HD roll with Advantage. And those monsters with 5 or less HD suffer automatically, and those with 14 HD or more are immune.

These numbers then shift up or down based on the slot you cast them. So a spell like Bane cast with a Level 1 spell slot (regardless of the actual level of the cleric) would require a standard save for monsters between 1 and 4 HD (level 1 x 2 = 2, +/- 2 HD)... a monster with 5 or 6 HD roll a save with Advantage... and those with 7 or more HD are immune. Or when a high level cleric decides to cast Bane using an 8th level spell slot, the numbers become a standard save at 14 to 18 HD (level 8 x 2 = 16); save with Disadvantage at 12 & 13 HD; Advantage at 17 & 18 HD; auto-failed save at 11 HD or less; immune to effect at 19 HD or more.

Granted... this might be more confusing that it is worth when you incorporate Advantage and Disadvantage into it... at which point you could just say that a spell cast in a certain level spell slot x 2 will affect monsters +/- 5 HD with a standard save... -6 HD are automatically affected, +6 HD are immune. But at least you still can get use out of so-called "low level spells" even at higher levels, just so long as you prep them in higher slots.