Human rogues can't sneak attack while hiding in shadows?

[Lareit]

I think the biggest concern should be.

How dark are these shadowed areas?

Sneak attack is striking a vital point, not easy to do if the target is a darkened form. A form you can see but locate vital points would not be a strong point. Just because it's night, and just because you're in a dark alley doesn't mean i can't always see your throat with decent clarity.

People tend to misplay that as being either, TOO blind for realism, or able to see too well.


Oh and the kicker is.

Gameplay is greater then Realism.

 

[Darklone]

I had my share of nighttime combat... and we like to forget that shadowy illumination in dark alleys in fantasy cities is not like a dark alley nowadays in cities with street lamps.

Shadowy illumination might mean easily that you can see that there is someone 10ft from you because he moves, but it's pretty difficult to see what kind of weapon he wields. This kind of illumination does not keep you from fighting, but it does keep you from sneak attacking.

 

[Particle_Man]

I had my share of nighttime combat... and we like to forget that shadowy illumination in dark alleys in fantasy cities is not like a dark alley nowadays in cities with street lamps.

Shadowy illumination might mean easily that you can see that there is someone 10ft from you because he moves, but it's pretty difficult to see what kind of weapon he wields. This kind of illumination does not keep you from fighting, but it does keep you from sneak attacking.

hmmm....I think that goggles of night have become a must-have for all sneak attackers that do not already have darkvision.

 

[Nail]

That means, if you are in the worst part of town, stay in the dark alleys, noone will attack you there

Sneak Attack rules-wise: sure.

But man, that's just wrong!

 

[Lareit]

Is it really wrong that you can't be sneak attacked in the darkest alleys? Unless they have darkvision or some other means of breaking the darkness barrier who would attack somone who's purposely going into the darkest, most dreary areas of a slum?

I'd also say since sneak attack is striking a vital area, you can strike a vital area when you can make in good detail the persons body well enough. It prevents sneak attack, not surprise rounds.

 

[Zhure]

Hence the best PC-race muggers are dwarves and half-orcs.

 

[Nifft]

ITYM if you are in the worst part of town, only go out at night. You'll never be sneak attacked again!

Well, if your only opponents are human, sure... but watch out for those half-orc rogues!

-- N

 

[pl]

This isn't only a problem for sneak attacks. Try sneaking around in a dungeon where there are no light sources. A human rouge without darkvision would have to bring some kind of light. So darkvision is vital for rouges.

And the darkness spell is quite good to defeat rouges (with or without darkvision). It helps the whole party against sneak attacks. Every rouge has to carry a scroll of daylight to counter this.

 

[Norfleet]

I had my share of nighttime combat... and we like to forget that shadowy illumination in dark alleys in fantasy cities is not like a dark alley nowadays in cities with street lamps.

Unless the alley is covered over, a modern alley would actually be harder to see in than a medieval alley: Modern buildings are taller and obstruct starlight more. The fact that there are no street lights isn't really an issue: Street lights not located within view of the alley don't contribute to much to your ability to see, but DO contribute towards light pollution the amount of useful starlight. A better approximation would be to try standing in a forest in the middle of the night: Can you still see the tree well enough to carve your initials into it? Unless you've ruined your night vision with laser eye surgery, you probably can, unless it's exceptionally cloudy or overgrown.

 

[Stormrunner]

Unless the alley is covered over, a modern alley would actually be harder to see in than a medieval alley: Modern buildings are taller and obstruct starlight more. The fact that there are no street lights isn't really an issue: Street lights not located within view of the alley don't contribute to much to your ability to see, but DO contribute towards light pollution the amount of useful starlight. A better approximation would be to try standing in a forest in the middle of the night: Can you still see the tree well enough to carve your initials into it? Unless you've ruined your night vision with laser eye surgery, you probably can, unless it's exceptionally cloudy or overgrown.

Medieval buildings may be shorter, but the streets are also narrower - especially in alleys where you're not expected to be able to drive an oxcart through it. Plus it was common practice to make the upper stories overhang, to get more living space - so the upper stories above that back alley may be only 2-3 feet apart.
Having done a fair bit of wilderness camping, no, you can't see the friggen tree well enough to carve your initials on it. Unless you've got a full moon, the trees around you are pretty much a solid black mass, especially in a conifer forest. (In a fir or spruce forest, especially, the canopy is thick enough that even at high noon you have "shadowy illumination" at best.)

In 3.0 we houseruled that in 10% or 20% concealment you could still sneak-attack, but in 30% or worse you couldn't. 3.5's simplification to "20% or total" was poorly thought-out, IMHO.