Hybrid Warlock/Swordmage

[kerbarian]

I've been thinking about a character idea, and I'm curious if anyone's played something similar -- if it's fun, effective, etc.

The idea is to go for high CON (INT secondary) and use mostly warlock powers plus Aegis of Shielding. In particular, Hellish Rebuke + Aegis of Shielding is quite a nasty combo. The target can hit the warlock/swordmage and suffer a pile of extra damage or attack someone else and deal little or no damage with its attack (with CON primary, the aegis is very effective). White Lotus Riposte can make it even worse.

AC is decent even without a high INT if I take Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding, and HP/surges are high with CON as the primary stat. The character would be tough enough to stand in the front line, and there are a number of warlock powers that are very effective if you're willing to do that (e.g. Armor of Agathys).

If I go with human, Eldritch Strike as the 3rd at-will provides a nice MBA that can benefit from curse damage. It's harder to use swordmage powers with INT as a secondary stat (alas for no CON/INT race), but there are still some nice options like Lashing Asp and Dimensional Vortex.

One of my concerns is that the character would be very dependent on minor and immediate actions. Both the curse and aegis require minor actions, the aegis also requires immediate actions, and there are a number of minor- or immediate-action powers that look like good choices (Lashing Asp, Channeling Shield, Dimensional Vortex).

 

[mkill]

I haven't tried it yet, but Swordmage/Warlock looks very effective on paper. Your main role is a striker / second defender: Jump around the battlefield and chase squishy high-damage dealers (artillery/skirmisher/lurker), while effectively locking them down. This works well with a dedicated frontline defender in the party (fighter/paladin/fightbrain).

As for defenses, you have your Int main stat and both Swordmage and Warlock are geared at Leather Armor, so that's fine. I would even consider Shadow Walk over Swordmage Warding, as it's equal +2 to all defenses.

As for Pacts, Infernal is great: free temp hp everytime a cursed enemy is killed. This counters your mediocre hp and lack of self-healing nicely. Most Swordmages are rather squishy when the monster can overcome their defenses. And yes, Hellish Rebuke is one of the highest-damage at-wills in the game with the right setup.

An alternative is Vestige Pact: Eye of the Vestige gives a free curse, which frees up your minor actions to mark stuff. The downside is that the Vestige Pact is rather complicated and needs your dailies to be really good.

I would avoid Dark Pact. The Darkspiral is a nice Catch-22 with Swordmage Warding, but the at-will is just awful and the powers often screw over allies, which is not what a Defender wants to do.

As for at-wills, you're right that Eldritch Strike is the best way to get curse damage in melee, on charges and opportunity attacks (and Aegis of Assault attacks, if you go that route). On the Swordmage side, it's hard to ignore sword burst. Together with Hellish Rebuke, the triple allows effective melee, ranged and close burst. A great tactical toolbox.

Implement issues: It's probably easiest to use a pact blade, but you could fix that with a feat later.

Power choice: Since Warlock powers allow for curse damage, I would prefer these.
However, you already have an excellent choice of at-will powers for your standard actions, you'll need your minor actions for curse/aegis, and your immediate interrupts will be reserved for Shielding.
Your best bet is probably to take powers with stances or other encounter-long buffs and passive effects, like Armor of Agathys. Another good bet are powers that provide free curses or free aegis, like Tyrannical Threat (Warlock 5)

 

[kerbarian]

As for defenses, you have your Int main stat and both Swordmage and Warlock are geared at Leather Armor, so that's fine. I would even consider Shadow Walk over Swordmage Warding, as it's equal +2 to all defenses.

Actually, I was going for Con as the main stat -- probably starting at 20 Con, 14 Int (if it weren't in LFR, which now allows stat retraining, I'd start 19 Con, 16 Int). That makes for strong attacks, and it would give a starting AC of 17 with Swordmage Warding (10 + 2 Int + 2 leather + 3 warding). +2 all defenses is better than +3 AC... but I'm not sure this character could consistently move 3 without provoking OA's. Plus there may be a lot of times he'd prefer minor, minor, standard to moving.

As for Pacts, Infernal is great: free temp hp everytime a cursed enemy is killed. This counters your mediocre hp and lack of self-healing nicely. Most Swordmages are rather squishy when the monster can overcome their defenses. And yes, Hellish Rebuke is one of the highest-damage at-wills in the game with the right setup.

As a hybrid, you don't get the pact boon, so no temp hp. But a Con-primary swordmage shouldn't be too squishy, I'm hoping.

Implement issues: It's probably easiest to use a pact blade, but you could fix that with a feat later.

That's one of the places where being a hybrid helps out. He gets to use heavy or light blades as implements, including for the warlock powers. I was planning on a longsword, since Eldritch Strike is a weapon power.

 

[mkill]

I don't think this character can work as you write.

Constitution alone doesn't make you sturdy enough to survive. You'll start with 30 hp or so, an extra hp from +1 Con doesn't make much difference. You'll need high defenses and the temp hp from your Pact Boon to be able to take damage. And Hellish Rebuke is only good if you take damage.

Without the Pact Boon, there is hardly a reason to curse things. Your Warlock's Curse bonus damage is a meager 1d6 per round, that's hardly worth it on its own. I strongly suggest you get the Pact Boon with Hybrid Talent.

And with a 14 Int, you gain pretty much nothing from Swordmage. Your AC will be too low to do defend effectively, even with Warding, and your Swordmage powers will miss.

He gets to use heavy or light blades as implements, including for the warlock powers. I was planning on a longsword, since Eldritch Strike is a weapon power.

Most warlock powers and many swordmage powers don't use [W] for their powers, so it doesn't make much difference if you wield a rod or a longsword.

It depends. If you don't go for Warding, it doesn't matter if you have the off-hand free, so you could wield a longsword and a quickcurse rod (or a rod of corruption) and use dual implement spellcaster to gain the bonus of both to damage.

 

[kerbarian]

Constitution alone doesn't make you sturdy enough to survive. You'll start with 30 hp or so, an extra hp from +1 Con doesn't make much difference. You'll need high defenses and the temp hp from your Pact Boon to be able to take damage. And Hellish Rebuke is only good if you take damage.

Well, starting at AC 17 and 33 hp would be as good as or better than a greatweapon fighter. Which isn't exactly a tough defender, but it should be good enough to stand in the front line.

Without the Pact Boon, there is hardly a reason to curse things. Your Warlock's Curse bonus damage is a meager 1d6 per round, that's hardly worth it on its own. I strongly suggest you get the Pact Boon with Hybrid Talent.

Early on, I'd say that a couple temp hp a couple times per fight is worth less than +3 AC. Later on (e.g. by high heroic), switching to dual implements and swapping Swordmage Warding for something else like a pact boon is probably a good idea. I'm not sure how to get a decent AC without warding, though.

And with a 14 Int, you gain pretty much nothing from Swordmage. Your AC will be too low to do defend effectively, even with Warding, and your Swordmage powers will miss.

The idea is to not attack with any swordmage powers. As a human, that still gives 2 at-wills (and Sword Burst if you happen to be surrounded by 8 guys), and for dailies and encounters there are things like Lashing Asp (no attack) or Dimensional Vortex (doesn't waste an attack if you miss).

The main benefit from swordmage is the aegis. Warlocks have a bunch of powers that punish enemies for attacking them, and swordmages punish enemies for *not* attacking them. Put them together and the enemy has no good options. I also think that being able to take a feat for +3 AC is important for standing in the front line. I don't know how a pure warlock could get a decent AC.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

It's an interesting idea, but as the discussion above demonstrates, the real problem with hybrid classes is the sparsity of class features. So much more would be possible if only you could take Hybrid Talent 2 or 3 times instead of just once. There are a lot of cool concepts that are almost possible but not quite. Yes, you can take HT again at paragon level, but from what I have experienced and read, very few characters make it that far.

 

[jbear]

Here is something to keep in mind. If you multiclass into Assassin you can get shadow walk via a feat: Cursed Shadow.

As far as Swordmage at wills, sword burst will be pretty useful on occaisions when surrounded by minions. As a human you can start with 18 CON and 16 INT. Githyanki could start with 18/18.

Also at level 11 you can pick up a feat that allows you to choose a second pact and you do receive the boon from that (if I'm not mistaken). So you are probably going to want not choose the pact you really want the boon from as your initial pact.

My Initial At Wills would be:
Eldritch Strike
Hellish Rebuke
Sword Burst

Encounter lvl 1
Chains of Levistus (this extra damage seems to trigger even with forced movement)
lvl 3
Dimensional Vortex (targets will, which hopefully balances out your lower 16 INT)

Daily
Lvl1 Armor of Agathys
Lvl5 Swordmage Shielding Fire (second creature marked by aegis even on a miss, now the damage you prevent is returned back on the attacker as fire damage)
Utility
lvl 2 Channelling Shield
Lvl 6 Fey Switch?

Feats
Lvl1 Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding
Human: White lotus Riposte
Lvl 2 : Multiclass: Assassin (2 shrouds/encounter)
Lvl 4: Cursed Shadow (Shadow Walk)
lvl 6: Sacrifice to Caiphon (makes Chains reliable) or Mark of Warding (marking penalty increases to -3)

I don't have time to look at the build any further but it looks like a fun build to play. I'd say 14 Int is a bit too low though. There are some pretty cool Swordmage powers that your going to want to have at least some chance to hit with!

 

[interwyrm]

Actually, I was going for Con as the main stat -- probably starting at 20 Con, 14 Int

This is *probably* doable. But why would you?

Instead of 20, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8...

19, 16, 11, 10, 10, 8 - your primary attacks will be as good for half your character's existence, you gain an AC, and your swordmage attacks are now viable.

20s are overrated.

 

[kerbarian]

Here is something to keep in mind. If you multiclass into Assassin you can get shadow walk via a feat: Cursed Shadow.

Interesting. It requires Dex 13, but 2 feats for shadow walk plus a little extra damage per encounter might be worthwhile.

Also at level 11 you can pick up a feat that allows you to choose a second pact and you do receive the boon from that (if I'm not mistaken). So you are probably going to want not choose the pact you really want the boon from as your initial pact.

I hadn't looked at the wording on Twofold Pact -- that's a major boost at paragon. Because this is for LFR, I don't have to plan out the pact choice from the start; it can be retrained.

My Initial At Wills would be:
Eldritch Strike
Hellish Rebuke
Sword Burst

Encounter lvl 1
Chains of Levistus (this extra damage seems to trigger even with forced movement)
lvl 3
Dimensional Vortex (targets will, which hopefully balances out your lower 16 INT)

Daily
Lvl1 Armor of Agathys
Lvl5 Swordmage Shielding Fire (second creature marked by aegis even on a miss, now the damage you prevent is returned back on the attacker as fire damage)
Utility
lvl 2 Channelling Shield
Lvl 6 Fey Switch?

That's very similar to the list I had in mind. The only differences are Arms of Hadar as the encounter 1, for some area damage, and Life Siphon as the utility 6.

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[kerbarian]

This is *probably* doable. But why would you?

Instead of 20, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8...

19, 16, 11, 10, 10, 8 - your primary attacks will be as good for half your character's existence, you gain an AC, and your swordmage attacks are now viable.

20s are overrated.

As I mentioned, if this weren't in LFR, I'd go with 19/16. However, in LFR you can re-choose your stats each level. So if I start at 20/14, at level 4 that can become 20/16 (by re-choosing my initial stats as 19/15). So it's really just a question of whether, for the first three levels, it's better to have the extra bonus to Con or Int. Since most of the attacks will be based on Con, I figure it's best to take the bonus there.