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D&D General I can't understand why Gygax split a given stat into Str and Con

le Redoutable

Explorer
He could join them into a Toughness stat couln't he ?

( that would be of help to us designers who could easily add a Energy stat to deal with Magic
so the six stats would be
Charisma
Dex ( and/or Manoeuvrability as a sub-stat )
Intelligence
Nrj
Toughness
Wisdom
;

next we would marry the six stats two by two

CxD ===> Acrobat ( . )
CxI ===> General ( or Warlord ?? ) ( . )
CxN ===> Cleric ( yes, I have dropped my Necromancer substitute; still there will perhaps room for Ninjutsu/Assassin )
CxT ===> Fighter ( . )
CxW ===> Ruler ( . )
DxI ===> Ranger ( . )
DxN ===> Bard
DxT ===> Hunter ( . )
DxW ===> Monk ( . )
IxN ===> Illusionist
IxT ===>
IxW ===>
NxT ===> Elementalist ( that is, Invoker/Evoker )
NxW ===> Druid
TxW ===> Brute ( . )

that's it for today :)
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
People make the mistake all the time that people with a lot of muscle are incredibly healthy. There's a correlation between them, but overall physical fitness has little to do with muscle mass. In addition constitution is also a measure of endurance, which body builders frequently suck at.

But as Morrus said, there's many ways to do it. It's about as good as any.
 

le Redoutable

Explorer
yes yes, note that you produce a multiclass by choosing three compatible classes ( which is Ad&d compliant ) like
CxD + IxN + TxW

also, to be a little more understandable, Cha could be relabelled to something like Prestige or Might ...
 
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le Redoutable

Explorer
People make the mistake all the time that people with a lot of muscle are incredibly healthy. There's a correlation between them, but overall physical fitness has little to do with muscle mass. In addition constitution is also a measure of endurance, which body builders frequently suck at.

But as Morrus said, there's many ways to do it. It's about as good as any.
I wonder if , in a fantasy setting , there are lots of Body-Builders ( joke )
 





le Redoutable

Explorer
Indeed I can tell you that my squeleton rules are ok ;
unfortunate to me I lack the proper combinations;
I would be glad ( really ! ) if you, old veterans, cleansed up my data ( included also is the BASE subsystem :) )

because
as you always notice, I always come up to almost the same combos ( :( )
( that's makes me sooo sad snif! )
 
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le Redoutable

Explorer
Being athletic isn't the same as being tough - and being able to function while dealing with pain isn't the same as being physically strong.
euh
Athlets use the limits of the items they struggle with;
so they are like students at the exams ( bac français means you have 4 hours to achieve resumé + explication de texte + dissertation ) : if you use chrono to fill your exam sheet then you can optimize your work;
this ( may seem arrogant but ) conveys to Athlets having lots of proficiencies in diverse tools;
I would easily call this Handle Item ( like horse riding to aircraft carrier lol )
 

Scars Unseen

Adventurer
I've decided that all stats from now on shall be condensed into a perfectly manageable two: effort and laziness. Here's how it works.

Whenever you want to put effort into an action, you roll against your effort stat. And you never roll for laziness. It's an automatic success whenever you don't feel like applying effort.

"Ralfgar! There are bandits attacking the town! Come help and drive them off!"
"Hold on, let me check my... nope. I'm good."
 

Jack Daniel

OD&D Referee
I can't understand why Gygax split a given stat into Str and Con

I don't believe there was any "splitting" going on. It's a mistake to even think of it that way.

When D&D was first published, there were three classes — fighting man, magic-user, and cleric — and the game needed three separate "stats" to serve as the prime requisites for those classes, to tell you how quickly or slowly you'd gain XP when playing as that class. Hence Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom were added to the game.

The other three stats are the ones that actually affected your character in-game: Constitution adjusts hit points, Dexterity adjusts accuracy with missiles, and Charisma adjusts the number and loyalty of your followers. (While none of us can really know the thought process that Gary Gygax put into this, it certainly is elegant to have the three prime requisite stats "mirrored" by three "capability" stats.)

Now, there are exceptions to this clean division. Apart from magic-user XP, Intelligence also affected how many languages you spoke; and the notes for Strength indicated that it "could" be used to determine whether a character successfully performed some feat of physical prowess. But by the letter of the rules, Strength and Wisdom had no effect on a character beyond adjusting fighter or cleric XP. (Things like melee combat adjustments and magic saving throw adjustments came along later — way later in the case of Wisdom.)

That said, all three prime requisites could still have an impact on your advancement, if your scores were high enough. Fighters originally got to treat every 2 points of Int above 9 and every 3 points of Wis above 9 as +1 to their Str; clerics similarly treated every 2 points of Int above 9 and every 3 points of Str above 9 as +1 to their Wis; whereas mages derived no benefit at all from Str but got to treat every 2 points of Wis above 9 as +1 to their Int — all for XP adjusting purposes only, of course.
 
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le Redoutable

Explorer
I don't believe there was any "splitting" going on. It's a mistake to even think of it that way.

When D&D was first published, there were three classes — fighting man, magic-user, and cleric — and the game needed three separate "stats" to serve as the prime requisites for those classes, to tell you quickly or slowly you'd gain XP when playing as that class. Hence Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom were added to the game.

The other three stats are the ones that actually affect your character in-game: Constitution adjusts hit points, Dexterity adjusts accuracy with missiles, and Charisma adjusts the number and loyalty of your followers. (While none of us can know the thought process that went into this, it certainly is elegant to have the three prime requisite stats "mirrored" by three "capability" stats.)

Now, there are exceptions to this clean division. Apart from magic-user XP, Intelligence also affected how many languages you spoke; and the notes for Strength indicated that it "could" be used to determine whether a character successfully performed some feat of physical prowess. But by the letter of the rules, Strength and Wisdom had no affect on a character beyond adjusting fighter or cleric XP. (Things like melee combat adjustments and magic saving throw adjustments came along later — way later in the case of Wisdom.)

That said, all three prime requisites could still have an impact on your advancement, if your scores were high enough. Fighters originally got to treat every 2 points of Int above 9 and every 3 points of Wis above 9 as +1 to their Str; clerics similarly treated every 2 points of Int above 9 and every 3 points of Str above 9 as +1 to their Wis; whereas mages derived no benefit at all from Str but got to treat every 2 points of Int above 9 as +1 to their Int — all for XP adjusting purposes only, of course.
so, you're a veteran and don't come to my help :(
 


darjr

I crit!
I wonder if , in a fantasy setting , there are lots of Body-Builders ( joke )
Oh yes there are. Tons of them actually. For instance some the youtuberatti of body builders, strength competitors and powerlifters that I watch have had little bits of D&D show up in their videos. From Jon Call, to Martins Licis (who actually played one or two sessions of D&D on his channel), to Omar Isuf (who's shirts are very cool), to Dr. Mike Israetel.

And others that, due to oblique references in their content, I suspect they play or used to, like Gregg Knuckols.

When I recently changed gyms a trainer asked about my lifting belt with the words "Bend Bars Lift Gates" embroidered on it. Turns out he's a huge fan of the Adventure Zone.

And I think many of them, me included, understand the difference between str and con.
 


Willie the Duck

Adventurer
He could join them into a Toughness stat couln't he ?

so, you're a veteran and don't come to my help :(

You asked specifically why Gygax did something. Someone provided a relatively exhaustive (and accurate) explanation for how the initial attributes came to be when they were initially conceived. How is that not coming to your aid? I would than Jack Daniel profusely for asking the question you asked, and -- if that's not really the question you'd hoped to have answered -- clarify for them and the rest of us what you really wanted addressed.

He could join them into a Toughness stat couln't he ?

( that would be of help to us designers who could easily add a Energy stat to deal with Magic
so the six stats would be
Charisma
Dex ( and/or Manoeuvrability as a sub-stat )
Intelligence
Nrj
Toughness
Wisdom
;

next we would marry the six stats two by two

CxD ===> Acrobat ( . )
CxI ===> General ( or Warlord ?? ) ( . )
CxN ===> Cleric ( yes, I have dropped my Necromancer substitute; still there will perhaps room for Ninjutsu/Assassin )
CxT ===> Fighter ( . )
CxW ===> Ruler ( . )
DxI ===> Ranger ( . )
DxN ===> Bard
DxT ===> Hunter ( . )
DxW ===> Monk ( . )
IxN ===> Illusionist
IxT ===>
IxW ===>
NxT ===> Elementalist ( that is, Invoker/Evoker )
NxW ===> Druid
TxW ===> Brute ( . )

that's it for today :)
As for this, well it is an interesting concept. It is wildly different from any version of D&D, which is fine, but raises the question of why one would want to bother with D&D if you were going to create a system like this? Why not build a game system from the ground up, complete with other game design choices you might also prefer to the way D&D does things? I'm also not clear on exactly what benefit this provides. You now have a series of 15 (once all the slots are filled) classes that each represent a focus on two specific attributes out of five, but what does that get us (other than a vague sense of mathematic completeness)? I guess my primary question is what is the goal for this project?
 


le Redoutable

Explorer
Ah Haa !
yes there are 15 basic classes,
but there are also 15 multiclasses ( by assembling basic classes three by three )

that should be why I get so confused on the behalf of assigning the 30 classes/multiclasses

( from that point I get some solidness - hopefully )

:)
 

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