I dont get the argument that you can do any concept with just core rules.

[brehobit]

Sure there is. You just described him. Obviously he isn't going to be better than something built using non-core rules/feats/prcs/spells, but that isn't the point, is it? Compare him to any other Core-only built character that doesn't specialize in throwing weapons, and your "thrown weapon master" will be a lot better at it.

Sure, but classes/characters are generally balanced vs. how useful they are to the party. A thrown weapon master (core-only) will be hugely weaker than a bow master (core-only) by nearly every measure.

(I don't have a problem with this as it reflects the "realistic" fact that bows are just better than thrown weapons in open warfare.)

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

First off, you can create any character concept using just the core rules.
- Minor alterations to classes as listed in the PHB such as changing class skills
- Mulitclassing
- Magic item/spell research

Will the resulting character be uber-powered as specialized PrC's? No.. but you can have a 'master' throwing character or a sneaky mage or...whatever.

Thrown weapons master:
- Quickdraw, Far-Shot, Rapid-Shot
- 1D6 Shuriken...which are ammunition and easily enchanted
- Sneak Attack ability
- Improved Feint, Bluff as a Move action
- - at higher levels Bluff as a free action
- Improved Crit {stacks w/ Keen of course.. or the terrorist will have won }

Going into the researched items arena:
- Gloves of Enlarge Ammunition (Die increase to thrown weapons)
- Sheath Belt of Keen {all weapons drawn from it apply the Keen ability}


In thier element, such a weapons master will out-damage a focused archer...but thats not the point of a character 'concept'
Perhaps its the point of a character 'build', but thats not what the title of the thread is talking about.

Character 'concepts' are like my current character, a Shadow Mage... a sneaky spell caster who manipulates the stuff of shadow and calls up shadow constructs to do its bidding...
On paper he is a Rogue/Cleric with the 'Stealthy' Feat and some custom researched spells.

 

[two]

First off, you can create any character concept using just the core rules.
- Minor alterations to classes as listed in the PHB such as changing class skills
- Mulitclassing
- Magic item/spell research

Will the resulting character be uber-powered as specialized PrC's? No.. but you can have a 'master' throwing character or a sneaky mage or...whatever.

Thrown weapons master:
- Quickdraw, Far-Shot, Rapid-Shot
- 1D6 Shuriken...which are ammunition and easily enchanted
- Sneak Attack ability
- Improved Feint, Bluff as a Move action
- - at higher levels Bluff as a free action
- Improved Crit {stacks w/ Keen of course.. or the terrorist will have won }

Going into the researched items arena:
- Gloves of Enlarge Ammunition (Die increase to thrown weapons)
- Sheath Belt of Keen {all weapons drawn from it apply the Keen ability}


In thier element, such a weapons master will out-damage a focused archer...but thats not the point of a character 'concept'
Perhaps its the point of a character 'build', but thats not what the title of the thread is talking about.

Character 'concepts' are like my current character, a Shadow Mage... a sneaky spell caster who manipulates the stuff of shadow and calls up shadow constructs to do its bidding...
On paper he is a Rogue/Cleric with the 'Stealthy' Feat and some custom researched spells.

Good god man, you can't be serious.

You enchant 50 shuriken and throw them... then they are destroyed... great solution to the "easy to enchant" issue. (ammo is always destroyed when they hit). There goes your +1 Holy Shurikens after 50 throws. This is an good idea?

You give him 2 feats (QD, Far Shot) and manage to get 1/5 the range of a vanilla bow with less damage... plus as a bonus no strength to damage! Sign me up?

You then pile some more feats up in an attempt to get the enemy more easily sneak-attackable... how many feats is this?

Bluff as a free action -- is this core?

And what about the 50% (minimum) of the time the enemy is not sneak-attackable and/or immune to sneak attacks?

You are quite happy doing 1d6 damage at level 10, for example, with NO strength bonus added?

Then some custom non-core researched items?

And THAT is a master thrower?

This concept is viable...um... exactly how?

 

[FrostedMini1337]

You apply str to thrown weapons, what are you talking about?

The whole point is that you can slightly modify things away from core and make most crap you find in PrC's. Invisible Blade feints as a free action eventually doesn't it? Glad a bought a book so someone could tell me I was allowed to do that.

 

[Goolpsy]

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Do everyone keep focusing on POWERGAMING ??

If all the other players make Maxed out power gaming Chars... and you with your non-concept half-powergaming master thrower can't get equally strong.. does that mean its not viable ..?

 

[two]

You apply str to thrown weapons, what are you talking about?

The whole point is that you can slightly modify things away from core and make most crap you find in PrC's. Invisible Blade feints as a free action eventually doesn't it? Glad a bought a book so someone could tell me I was allowed to do that.

Shuriken = no str. to dam.

 

[two]

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Do everyone keep focusing on POWERGAMING ??

If all the other players make Maxed out power gaming Chars... and you with your non-concept half-powergaming master thrower can't get equally strong.. does that mean its not viable ..?

This is quite beside the point.

It really is.

Let's say I have a cool PC idea... a character that throws handaxes is one part of the idea.

The core rules mechanically penalize you for this idea.

It's the exact opposite of power gaming.

You simply can't min/maxx a master thrower and even approach parity with a non-optimized, non-min/maxxed archer.

I simply want parity for the thrower.

You can't get it.

 

[Corsair]

On the other hand, I would argue that certain things SHOULDN'T always be equal.

You put two level 1 fighters a hundred feet apart and give one throwing daggers and the other a bow, the one with the bow SHOULD be able to kill the one with the daggers first. That falls into the "duh" category. Same for guy in hide armor with a club vs full plate with a greatsword.

The core rules you can play any concept you want, but there is no guarantee that it will be a perfect fit, or that it will give you any mechanical bonus for doing so (which is what you seem to be more hung up on)

 

[Question]

two brought up an interesting point that i didnt think of.

I dont know why power gaming keeps getting mentioned. Wanting to utilize a decent build that fits a un-usual concept is hardly power gaming.

 

[Nail]

Not being able to optimally build any concept you want is pretty typical of every gaming system.