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<blockquote data-quote="chriton227" data-source="post: 5931065" data-attributes="member: 33263">Disintegrate is also a daily wizard attack that requires a successful attack against Reflex, and does damage plus ongoing damage even on a miss, with a target getting a save to end the ongoing damage.Some fireballs do require an attack roll against reflex and do damage on a miss.&nbsp; I haven't seen a &quot;No 4e Players Welcome&quot; sign on the D&amp;D Next door.&nbsp; Like it or not, damage on a miss has been around for several years now, and is something that the designers need to make a conscious decision on whether or not to keep.&nbsp; 4e didn't even introduce it, just look at the 3e Meteor Swarm, you get 4 attacks and even on a miss the target still has to make a save or take full damage from the fire effect. Fire Seeds also do damage on a miss.&nbsp; And it isn't limited to just magic, alchemists fire does a point of damage on a miss too.&nbsp; I distinctly remember a party in one of my games using the fact that they could lob flasks of alchemists fire into a group of kobolds or goblins and know that they would still do a point of damage to the target (and likely to several targets) on a miss since they were only 1 increment away.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="chriton227, post: 5931065, member: 33263"] Disintegrate is also a daily wizard attack that requires a successful attack against Reflex, and does damage plus ongoing damage even on a miss, with a target getting a save to end the ongoing damage. Some fireballs do require an attack roll against reflex and do damage on a miss. I haven't seen a "No 4e Players Welcome" sign on the D&D Next door. Like it or not, damage on a miss has been around for several years now, and is something that the designers need to make a conscious decision on whether or not to keep. 4e didn't even introduce it, just look at the 3e Meteor Swarm, you get 4 attacks and even on a miss the target still has to make a save or take full damage from the fire effect. Fire Seeds also do damage on a miss. And it isn't limited to just magic, alchemists fire does a point of damage on a miss too. I distinctly remember a party in one of my games using the fact that they could lob flasks of alchemists fire into a group of kobolds or goblins and know that they would still do a point of damage to the target (and likely to several targets) on a miss since they were only 1 increment away. [/QUOTE]

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