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I Don't Like Damage On A Miss
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<blockquote data-quote="Viktyr Gehrig" data-source="post: 5932273" data-attributes="member: 9249"><p>Except that 14 damage on a <strong>critical</strong> 'hit' isn't even 'meaningful physical harm' to a character with more than 28 hit points-- meaning that this paradigm itself is nonsensical in relation to the hit point system.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In that case, we are defining 'hit points' as a character's fighting capacity-- some combination of endurance, pain tolerance, and morale.</p><p></p><p>A Slayer, then, is someone who attacks so relentlessly and overwhelmingly that they cause 'damage' without striking their opponent directly-- even blocked, their blows dent armor and drive their enemies' shields into their chests and faces. Parrying their strikes leaves your hands numb and strains your muscles, and every crashing blow makes it that much harder to get your weapon back in line.</p><p></p><p>I fought a guy like that once. Broke my nose by driving the rim of my shield into the faceplate of my helmet. There's no way that was a 'hit' from a greatsword, but I could easily buy that as 3 or 4 damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I really don't see that at all. Reaper damage is nowhere near 'hit' damage, and can only kill things that are either pitifully weak-- in which case there's no 'climax' to spoil-- or have been battered down to their last handful of hit points. Finishing someone off with a cherry tap is less climactic than ending a long, brutal fight with one glorious critical... but can certainly have dramatic impact if the DM has been playing the enemy's dwindling hit points appropriately.</p><p></p><p>As for 'unbalanced'... what is unbalanced about it? How is the Fighter being able to deal up to 5 damage on a miss more powerful than the Wizard being able to deal 1d4+1 multiple times in a round without even rolling? It's nowhere near as powerful as the Guardian's ability to grant disadvantage to one attack per round.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that the ability caps are a bad mechanic that should not be reinstated, and that ability score increases are a good mechanic that should be.</p><p></p><p>I love the death of the scaling attack bonuses because it allows weak monsters to challenge high-level characters, and gives low-level characters a fighting chance against stronger monsters. I love that characters are less superhuman, and take longer to become superhuman, than in 3.X.</p><p></p><p>But characters above level 10 are living legends, characters above level 20 are approaching <strong>divinity</strong>, and I want their ability scores to reflect that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Choices are good. In traditional D&D, Fighters have always been the class with the least options. 4e changed that and many people, even non-fans, believe that was a good thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd love to see a Conan-style Parry and Dodge system in D&D, but it seems to me that it would interact poorly with the Armor Class rules and changing to an Armor as DR system would either be horribly unrealistic and unbalanced, or else overcomplicated and unwieldy-- especially in comparison to the beautifully elegant ruleset we're using.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is a good thing, because that means the player who <strong>did</strong> choose to be a Slayer gets to feel better about the times his character or someone else's have been dropped because he wasn't able to protect them like a Guardian would have.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? Because as a DM, I design my monsters with the intention they're going to be killed and it's going to take a lot of hits and Slayer-style misses before that one missed attack roll is going to kill my BBEG anyway.</p><p></p><p>If the Fighter kills my epic BBEG with a lucky critical, I'm going to lavishly describe the resulting decapitation or diagonal cut.</p><p></p><p>If he kills him with the cherry tap instead, the BBEG is going to laugh at the feeble attack... and then cough up some blood, stare at it in amazement, and collapse. Or maybe I just won't tell the players he's dead at first, until he skips his next action and they notice he's literally dead on his feet.</p><p></p><p>Neither of those is anti-climactic, and done right, they make a very minor mechanical ability look a lot more awesome than it really is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I like Slayer, but I don't like <em>magic missile</em>. I think all spells should be attack rolls, if for no other reason than to give Wizards a reason to stay sober.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, I don't mind the scaling on <em>magic missile</em>. Compare it to the Fighter's additional attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd imagine that it would combine interestingly with other mechanics that Slayers get at higher levels, especially Fighter Slayers. It's not bad at all for a Fighter with multiple attacks against a high AC opponent.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No scaling attack and saving throw bonuses. Skills that aren't associated with specific ability scores. Wizards and Clerics using different systems for preparing and casting magic. </p><p></p><p>I'm not seeing a lot of rigid traditionalism here. Kobolds have 3 hit points because they're chump monsters that are <strong>supposed</strong> to go down in one hit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Viktyr Gehrig, post: 5932273, member: 9249"] Except that 14 damage on a [b]critical[/b] 'hit' isn't even 'meaningful physical harm' to a character with more than 28 hit points-- meaning that this paradigm itself is nonsensical in relation to the hit point system. In that case, we are defining 'hit points' as a character's fighting capacity-- some combination of endurance, pain tolerance, and morale. A Slayer, then, is someone who attacks so relentlessly and overwhelmingly that they cause 'damage' without striking their opponent directly-- even blocked, their blows dent armor and drive their enemies' shields into their chests and faces. Parrying their strikes leaves your hands numb and strains your muscles, and every crashing blow makes it that much harder to get your weapon back in line. I fought a guy like that once. Broke my nose by driving the rim of my shield into the faceplate of my helmet. There's no way that was a 'hit' from a greatsword, but I could easily buy that as 3 or 4 damage. I really don't see that at all. Reaper damage is nowhere near 'hit' damage, and can only kill things that are either pitifully weak-- in which case there's no 'climax' to spoil-- or have been battered down to their last handful of hit points. Finishing someone off with a cherry tap is less climactic than ending a long, brutal fight with one glorious critical... but can certainly have dramatic impact if the DM has been playing the enemy's dwindling hit points appropriately. As for 'unbalanced'... what is unbalanced about it? How is the Fighter being able to deal up to 5 damage on a miss more powerful than the Wizard being able to deal 1d4+1 multiple times in a round without even rolling? It's nowhere near as powerful as the Guardian's ability to grant disadvantage to one attack per round. I agree that the ability caps are a bad mechanic that should not be reinstated, and that ability score increases are a good mechanic that should be. I love the death of the scaling attack bonuses because it allows weak monsters to challenge high-level characters, and gives low-level characters a fighting chance against stronger monsters. I love that characters are less superhuman, and take longer to become superhuman, than in 3.X. But characters above level 10 are living legends, characters above level 20 are approaching [b]divinity[/b], and I want their ability scores to reflect that. Choices are good. In traditional D&D, Fighters have always been the class with the least options. 4e changed that and many people, even non-fans, believe that was a good thing. I'd love to see a Conan-style Parry and Dodge system in D&D, but it seems to me that it would interact poorly with the Armor Class rules and changing to an Armor as DR system would either be horribly unrealistic and unbalanced, or else overcomplicated and unwieldy-- especially in comparison to the beautifully elegant ruleset we're using. Which is a good thing, because that means the player who [b]did[/b] choose to be a Slayer gets to feel better about the times his character or someone else's have been dropped because he wasn't able to protect them like a Guardian would have. Really? Because as a DM, I design my monsters with the intention they're going to be killed and it's going to take a lot of hits and Slayer-style misses before that one missed attack roll is going to kill my BBEG anyway. If the Fighter kills my epic BBEG with a lucky critical, I'm going to lavishly describe the resulting decapitation or diagonal cut. If he kills him with the cherry tap instead, the BBEG is going to laugh at the feeble attack... and then cough up some blood, stare at it in amazement, and collapse. Or maybe I just won't tell the players he's dead at first, until he skips his next action and they notice he's literally dead on his feet. Neither of those is anti-climactic, and done right, they make a very minor mechanical ability look a lot more awesome than it really is. I like Slayer, but I don't like [i]magic missile[/i]. I think all spells should be attack rolls, if for no other reason than to give Wizards a reason to stay sober. On the other hand, I don't mind the scaling on [i]magic missile[/i]. Compare it to the Fighter's additional attacks. I'd imagine that it would combine interestingly with other mechanics that Slayers get at higher levels, especially Fighter Slayers. It's not bad at all for a Fighter with multiple attacks against a high AC opponent. No scaling attack and saving throw bonuses. Skills that aren't associated with specific ability scores. Wizards and Clerics using different systems for preparing and casting magic. I'm not seeing a lot of rigid traditionalism here. Kobolds have 3 hit points because they're chump monsters that are [b]supposed[/b] to go down in one hit. [/QUOTE]
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