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I hate expertise dice as a universal mechanic.
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6042389" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>Everybody's calling the Rogue a "Fighter light!", but guess what? In combat, a Rogue *is* a "Fighter light." They are not going to be as strong as Fighters. End of story. But the Rogue isn't about combat. It's about skill use. And THAT hasn't changed. The Rogue still gets twice as many skills as any other class and has all manner of ways to increase and modify their skill use. So in two of the three pillars, the Rogue still retains its power and speciality... but in combat, it plays second-fiddle to the Fighter. Which as it should be.</p><p></p><p>What I suspect of course is that those who don't want Rogues to be Fighter-lights are looking for a combat experience that probably less than half of all players really want for their Rogues and only half of Rogue characters ever participate in-- the "stealth assassin" archetype. The Rogues (like the old Thief) who <em>barely</em> participates in combat, spends the entire fight on the outskirts of it... and pops in on rarest occasions to deliver massive amounts of hurt before popping back out again. And they want the Rogue's combat mechanics to facilitate and highlight that. So it's not just MOWR POWAR! in terms of Sneak Attack... it's how the class actually is run during combat, and the unique mechanics used to accomplish it.</p><p></p><p>But the problem is... I think those players are really the minority in how they want Rogues to participate in combat. That kind of Rogue doesn't <em>really</em> participate as part of the group. It does it's own thing every round completely outside of the attack-defend paradigm that the other classes do... and only shows up at the most opportune time to go nova on somebody, and then is completely spent until he goes through the entire process again.</p><p></p><p>However... I think the majority of Rogue players want to be able to do something <em>every</em> round of combat-- whether that's standing toe-to-toe in melee alongside the DEX-Fighters... or do the sneaking around thing while delivering Sneak Attacks at least every other round. And when that is the case... the Rogues HAVE to be Fighter-lights, in order to keep Fighters the masters of combat, and also to balance the fact of the superiority the Rogues get in the other two pillars of the game.</p><p></p><p>At the end of the day... I do not believe the game is going to be balanced around the "stealth assassin" paradigm of the Rogue and the game mechanics for that class built around that paradigm. But rather the class will have mechanics designed to facilitate the Sneak Attack "operate as part of the group" combat Rogue they have been for the past two editions. Of which... Expertise Dice is just as valid of a concept as any other one they might try and introduce. Because more players want their Rogues that way, and it continues the design principals they have always put forth these last many years, which is that no one should EVER be put on the sideline completely as a default part of the game. Everyone should get to be an active participant if they so choose as part of the basic design in all aspects of the game.</p><p></p><p>And those who want the "stealth assassin"? You're probably going to either have to hope there's a module or end up creating and balancing those rules yourself.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6042389, member: 7006"] Everybody's calling the Rogue a "Fighter light!", but guess what? In combat, a Rogue *is* a "Fighter light." They are not going to be as strong as Fighters. End of story. But the Rogue isn't about combat. It's about skill use. And THAT hasn't changed. The Rogue still gets twice as many skills as any other class and has all manner of ways to increase and modify their skill use. So in two of the three pillars, the Rogue still retains its power and speciality... but in combat, it plays second-fiddle to the Fighter. Which as it should be. What I suspect of course is that those who don't want Rogues to be Fighter-lights are looking for a combat experience that probably less than half of all players really want for their Rogues and only half of Rogue characters ever participate in-- the "stealth assassin" archetype. The Rogues (like the old Thief) who [I]barely[/I] participates in combat, spends the entire fight on the outskirts of it... and pops in on rarest occasions to deliver massive amounts of hurt before popping back out again. And they want the Rogue's combat mechanics to facilitate and highlight that. So it's not just MOWR POWAR! in terms of Sneak Attack... it's how the class actually is run during combat, and the unique mechanics used to accomplish it. But the problem is... I think those players are really the minority in how they want Rogues to participate in combat. That kind of Rogue doesn't [I]really[/I] participate as part of the group. It does it's own thing every round completely outside of the attack-defend paradigm that the other classes do... and only shows up at the most opportune time to go nova on somebody, and then is completely spent until he goes through the entire process again. However... I think the majority of Rogue players want to be able to do something [I]every[/I] round of combat-- whether that's standing toe-to-toe in melee alongside the DEX-Fighters... or do the sneaking around thing while delivering Sneak Attacks at least every other round. And when that is the case... the Rogues HAVE to be Fighter-lights, in order to keep Fighters the masters of combat, and also to balance the fact of the superiority the Rogues get in the other two pillars of the game. At the end of the day... I do not believe the game is going to be balanced around the "stealth assassin" paradigm of the Rogue and the game mechanics for that class built around that paradigm. But rather the class will have mechanics designed to facilitate the Sneak Attack "operate as part of the group" combat Rogue they have been for the past two editions. Of which... Expertise Dice is just as valid of a concept as any other one they might try and introduce. Because more players want their Rogues that way, and it continues the design principals they have always put forth these last many years, which is that no one should EVER be put on the sideline completely as a default part of the game. Everyone should get to be an active participant if they so choose as part of the basic design in all aspects of the game. And those who want the "stealth assassin"? You're probably going to either have to hope there's a module or end up creating and balancing those rules yourself. [/QUOTE]
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