I Have A Problem With 3E

[Psion]

1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.
Potential Solution: There needs to be a significant drawback to multiclassing while keeping it viable. Currently, the only drawback (XP penalty) is easily circumvented. Even when it isn't avoided, XP loss isn't fun.

The XP penalty is a flavor enforcement thing more than a bona fide balancing factor, though it does tend to catch people doing "level dipping", which is a good thing.

At any rate, I disagree with your premise, so I'll move on.

2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic as an idea is great. But there is a reason the designers gave it an opportunity cost in the form of a higher level spell slot. Wizards were not meant to maximize fireballs at 5th level and clerics weren't meant to chain greater magic weapon at 7th level. The current trend of metamagic rods, sudden metamagic feats, and other "free" metamagic effects gives spellcasters too much power.
Potential Solution: I think this aspect just needs to be removed from the game. Metamagic is fine. "Free" metamagic is not.

IMO:
1) Metamagic rods are expensive, as they should be. 5th level mages won't be using them. But for the cost, I don't think they are overpowered.
2) Metamagic has great potential, but IMO, it's too costly. There have been some sloppy workarounds too this, but I think that some mitigation of some sort is needed to keep them useful.

3. Synergy
I'm not talking about synergy bonuses from skills. I am talking about unintended consequences of mixing and matching sourcebooks. For example, if a dread necromancer (Heroes of Horror) takes the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (Libris Mortis), he gets unlimited healing. Taken separately, neither of these abilities is overpowered. Taken together, they have synergy that is far greater than the power of their individual components, likely an oversight because the books had different development teams.
Potential Solution: Allow each player access to one sourcebook ONLY outside of the three core rulebooks. This prevents most forms of synergy. Of course it reduces player options so it is not an ideal solution.

My preferred solution is:
1) Allow sourcebooks only as appropriate for the campaign, depending on campaign theme.
2) DM approval on anything outside the core books.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
Because of the double bonus from Power Attack, floaty shields, and more beneficial Strength modifier, two-handed weapon wielders have become the staple of melee combat. Forgive me, but this is trite. Two-weapon fighters and sword-and-board style have become comparatively worthless relics in the game.

This is one I agree on. Though I do tend to think that it balances out a bit at higher levels. A shield is like an extra magic item slot. But still, I think sword-n-board needs better options.

IMC, bonus from Power Attack operates under the same rules as strength bonuses do (x1.5 two-handed, x1/2 off hand.) This was one of my first rulings in 3.5.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
This is a horrible idea because it propagates the notion that the world conforms itself to the power level of the player characters. Some encounters are meant to be tougher, and those encounters require greater resources. Others are meant to be more menial and require fewer resources. Properly gauging the difficulty of an encounter and balancing your resources is part of the strategy of D&D. Leave "per encounter" balancing in MMORPGs and keep D&D a strategic game, like it was meant to be. Or at least publish two versions.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Though there is more per-encounter balancing in later products, I don't see this as being a problem. I'm certainly not obsessed with running multiple encounters per day, but on occasion I'll push a party to their limits to keep them on their toes. I don't think weaker per day abilities are going to break this. Yeah, warlock is dumb IMO and I don't allow it, but it's not like we haven't always had fighters and archer builds that are effectively repeatable resources excluding HP, and they have been there all along. New books are just about affording that sort of resource philosophy to other types of abilities.

I think part of the strategy is balancing the use of your expendable resources versus your persistent ones.

6. Neverending Buffs

Never bothered me. Liberal use of dispel magic and heavy need for healing will quickly bring those who abuse this in line.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
These kinds of feats make the game a bit too complicated because of the constant calculation required. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack has 11 attack options representing the various penalties he can take. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack AND Combat Expertise has 66 attack options! And he is expected to quickly decide which course of action is best?

This strikes me as just nitpicking. Most likely, unless the player is really analyzing minutia in game, most players just pick a mod they are comfortable with and be done with it.

If they try to analyze mid-combat, institute a time limit for announcing actions.

8. Point Buy
As if we needed more excuses for players to focus on character creation as opposed to actually playing the game. The world isn't that fair. I don't know why we would expect our characters to be "equal" either (as if that ideal were even possible). Besides, it ruins the excitement of rolling up a really nice set of scores.
Potential Solution: Roll ability scores.

You'll get massive disagreement here, but I don't. I enforce a narrow spread of ability score modifiers and a dice system that minimizes dump statting, but overall, I feel that the blandness and point-niggliness that comes with point buy is not worth any gains in "player freedom".

9. Rerolls
Various class abilities that allow rerolls greatly reduce the amount of chance in the game.

As someone who feels dumped upon by the dice gods, I don't see the problem here.

10. Magic Item Creation
It costs XP to make magic items. So my character unlearns things for succeeding at a task. How on earth does that make sense?

Old chestnut, and I disagree even more now than I did years ago. Because now, you see, you can never lose enough XP that you could lose a level, so you don't unlearn anything.

What is happening is that you lose some of your personal vitality and drive that pushes you on to greater things. Having seen smart people that could have done so much more with their lives if they had that drive, it makes sense to me that if this quality was metaphysically tapped, it would hamper that.

I think if you can't handle the concept of personal essence and drive as a metaphysical concept, there are lots of other D&D concepts you shouldn't think too hard about else the figurative house of cards that is D&D metaphysics might come tumbling down...

Edit: That said, I do allow exotic components to defray this (and other) costs, but mainly for flavor reasons.

 

[WayneLigon]

2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic as an idea is great. But there is a reason the designers gave it an opportunity cost in the form of a higher level spell slot. Wizards were not meant to maximize fireballs at 5th level and clerics weren't meant to chain greater magic weapon at 7th level. The current trend of metamagic rods, sudden metamagic feats, and other "free" metamagic effects gives spellcasters too much power.

They won't be casting them at that level if you don't let them find a rod or buy one. If you've got 5th level mages buying 14,000gp Maximize rods, then you have a bigger problem than just metamagic feats.

I'd personally say that the rod just confers the ability to use the feat, so the spell slot does change.

 

[Raven Crowking]

1. Multiclassing

Make up some prerequisites, then treat all PC classes as prestige classes after 1st level.

2. Free Metamagic

Go with your potential solution. Simply remove metamagic items from the game.

3. Synergy

If synergy causes a game problem, remove the offending synergy. Simply say "X and Y cannot be used together. You may rebuild your character if you like."

4. Two-Handed Weapons

Remove the floaty shields, and use Armor as DR. (My house rules give armor both DR and AC modifier.)

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day

This is a horrible idea indeed. I simply tossed it out with the bathwater, granting Action Points to cover rough spots.

6. Neverending Buffs

Rewrite them.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack

Power Attack instead gives a 50/50 option. IMC, I removed the feat and made this standard, along with Weapon Finesse for certain weapons.

8. Point Buy

Don't use it.

9. Rerolls

If you stop balancing by encounter, rerolls should stop being a real problem. Heck, the PCs might need those rerolls!

10. Magic Item Creation

A portion of your essense goes into the item, unless you use power components. I also recommend the use of secrets, i.e.:

Brew Potion [Item Creation]

Prerequisites: Spellcaster level 1+.

Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know the formula for and that targets one or more creatures. When this feat is selected, you gain 1 + Intelligence bonus potion formulas. You may select any spell you are able to select when choosing spells (based upon class, level, and feats), even if it is not a spell that you otherwise know. Thereafter, at each spellcaster level you automatically learn another potion formula. You may also learn potion formulas as arcane secrets.

Etc.​

Good luck!


RC

 

[Aaron L]

1. Multiclassing
OK, first off, you should really start viewing multiclassing not as starting a new career, but players building custom classes for their characters with the tools available to them. Player A isn't a fighter/ranger, he's a militant woodsman scout, a ranger who is more focused on martial arts than the norm.

2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic rods aren't any more "free" than magic swords are. There is already a nice balancing factor built into them, it's called the recommended wealth per level guidelines.

3. Synergy
This is a simple matter of the DM looking over and approving any feats or skills or whatever players take for their characters.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
Realistically, a big two handed weapon will do more damage than a smaller one handed one. I don't see a big problem with the rules reflecting that.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
Huh? How does having abilities usable a certain number of times per encounter rather than per day affect anything? You've discovered this secret "way the game was supposed to be" that the rest of us have somehow missed and gotten wrong? Fighters aren't limited in the number of times they can swing their weapon.


6. Neverending Buffs
Again, how does this remove any elements of strategy from the game? Do you not still have to decide if you want to use these spells or not? And when to use them? What is the problem with having long lasting beneficial spells? Every "buff" spell taken is one less attack spell.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
Subtracting a number from one column and adding it to another is pretty basic stuff.

8. Point Buy
This is total personal preference and has no bearing on anything. It isn't even the default rule, rolling for stats is. I personally don't use point buy, but many people prefer it.


9. Rerolls
Why? This ability is such a rarity anyway, and the ability to redo one roll per day is hardly going to hurt a game. Are you really that worried that someone who fails a saving throw can get the chance to make it instead once per day? One re-roll per day is really a harmful problem? One re-roll per day does not qualify for a great reduction in chance. In fact, it doesn't reduce chance one little bit. It creates more chance because their are more rolls.
But seriously, it's a rare ability that can be used once per day on one die roll. It has a negligible total effect on the game.

10. Magic Item Creation
The only way you would "unlearn" anything is if you lost a level. Since you can't lose a level from making magic items, this doesn't happen. Experience Points are a measure of a character's life force. Thats why undead suck out XP and levels. They aren't taking away memories, they're draining life force.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

... requirement of stacking. The feats and Skill systems require too much record keeping for the typical player (esp. once you reach around 4th and up) ("whats my total to hit with this weapon, what about that one, whats bull rush again, what do I need to get it"?).

Que? I'm so very confused by this statement. This is why they have blanks on the character sheet labeled "Attack Bonus" listed next to a specific weapon. There should never be a time when the player is asking that unless they've got a buff from another player and can't do simple addition.

Also, for "complicated" characters like Fighters with Power Attack, make a page of "typical Power Attacks"; like this.

Longsword - Attack +7 - Damage 1d8+3 - Critical 19-20/x2
Longsword with half Power Attack - Attack +5 - Damage 1d8+5 - Critical 19-20/x2
Longsword with full Power Attack - Attack +3 - Damage 1d8+7 - Critical 19-20/x2

How hard is that, really?

Also characters start feeling like the sum total of their feats and skills...very similar to card games like magic (and many have stated 3E is Magic in FRPG form..and I think there is some truth to that). Every possible "move" has a corresponding "button" in a skill (or feat and skill). This button effect, I think, is another problem that can't be fixed (as its too built in). IN 1E feats and skills were built into the archetype, and were just generally assumed (the player asked to try and do stuff and the DM told them what to role based often on his logic. 3E has actions so defined, you can't make a move without checking a number on your PC page. Where's the fun in that! These judgement calls (in earlier D&D) were a big part of the fun for the DM who took ownership of the game in this way.

Oh, you can still make judgment calls, but the way 3e is set up, you don't have to make judgment calls for things like Power Attack or Tumble. Less judgment calls *required* is a good thing. Feel free to make your own calls, just don't force them all on newbie DMs.

Now none of tihs is to say 3E is broken, it just doesn't work for me. I know alot of good guys that love 3E and I respect their opinion. So, please don't take this the wrong way. And I'm open to suggestions to fix those elements that really bug me on such a fundamental level

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm calling you out or anything; I'm really not. I'm sure you're a stand-up bloke (or bloke-ette), just felt the need to respond.

Back to the OP.

1) Mutliclassing - I don't usually agree with The Gneech about things (I'm honestly not sure why, though), but his point about d20 Modern has merit. I don't like Pre-d20 D&D simply because it's damned near impossible for a character to say "Ya know, this whole thievery thing isn't working out too well for me; I'm going to go train to be a more straightforward warrior."

2) Free Metamagic - A lot of the other posters have hit this on the head, but the "free" metamagic items aren't really free. It's like complaining that a magical sword gives the Fighter a better chance to hit. If anything, they're a welcome addition for spellcasters, whom normally don't get much benefit out of non-spellbook or stat-boost items treasure.

3) Synergy - Is unlimited healing really *that* big an issue? Especially when it comes with the high price of Tomb-Tainted Soul? Heck, it even makes flavor-sense to take that feat; you're a Dread Necromancer, shouldn't your soul be Tomb-Tainted if all you do is galavant around with the undead? Be that as it may, there's still the risk of some NPC healer coming across your unconscious body and trying to cast Cure Light Wounds to bring you around. Died by Cure Light Wounds, how embarrassing is that?

4) Two-Handed Weapons - Beyond animated shields, most THW types have between 2 and 4 less AC than the Sword and Board type. Honestly, I think they're all balanced if you incorporate the PHB2; the SaB gets a lot of love in there.

TWF - More attacks that do average damage, less defense.
THW - Bigger attacks, less defense.
SaB - Less attacks, more defense.

I really don't see what the problem with that formula is. I've had just as many SaB fighters as I have THW types. Only one TWF person ever, simply because most players in my group don't want to roll 14 attacks on a full attack.

5) Balancing per Encounter instead of Per Day - Again I say, "What?". I mean, I get the issue of "fight for 10 minutes, then rest all day", but that just seems to be the logical way of doing it. If I could get all of my work done in 10 minutes, then could take the rest of the day off, I'm pretty sure I would. It's not heroic, sure, but it's smart. Same with the Grimlock argument from before.

Sure, every once in a while, it's fun to do one of those "lets see how long we can keep going without resting" things. In most cases, though, that just leads to TPKs; and that's something I want to avoid. D&D to me is a casual environment where friends get together and have fun.

The whole EL system is just plain daft. I'm sick to the teeth of the HD/CR/EL/LA/ECL thing; it's a badly put together kludge that should have been drowned at birth. I don't like that a "balanced encounter" means it takes 25% of resources. (I could get all political about US military perceptions influencing RPG design, but I won't). "Balanced" means there's a 50/50 chance of survival!!!! Yes, it's tough. That's what tactics and careful planning is for. A party of four 1-st level adventures clubbing a single Grimlock to death isn't heroic; it's cowardly slaughter, and has no place in my game.

Sure, four 1st level heroes beating up a lone grimlock isn't heroic; unless that Grimlock leapt out and attacked them, using its heightened senses to hide before the PCs noticed it. Especially if it leapt out and incapacitated the group's Wizard. Heroism is subjective; I see it as living in a world where seemingly every bad thing in existence wants you dead.

[nerd rage] And frankly, the CR system *is* a good way for new DMs to judge encounters, until they get a better handle on what their player characters can do. It's not a kludge, it's a helping hand. I'm sure you, in your infinite wisdom, can easily spot exactly how an encounter is going to go down, but some DMs are new, and need things like CR to help them out. It may not be elegant, but it works for what it was intended.[/nerd rage]

6) Neverending Buffs - These are much better than "1 minute per level" and the like buffs, in that they actually encourage people to go out and adventure all day. Actually, lets scrap them and just have Marshal/Dragon Shaman/Bard-like aura effects that are always on. Much easier and more thematic.

7) Combat Expertise / Power Attack - If options are a bad thing, I don't want to be good. As noted way back up at the top of this ranting, if players are having a hard time grasping the (rather simplistic) rules for Combat Expertise and/or Power Attack, they should either make up a cheat sheet or play something simpler.

8) Point Buy - In the real world, things aren't fair. In D&D, I expect everyone to at least start on something resembling equal footing.

9) Rerolls - As I'm sure someone pointed out before, it's called the Luck domain. It makes sense that it'll make you, oh I don't know, Lucky? Crimeny. Rerolls aren't bad, it's that they appearantly take all the fun out of it for killer DMs. Good.

10) Magic Item Creation - Again, XP = life-energy/soul/whatever. You're giving up part of your soul to make that magic item. That's pretty much how it worked in LotR and most fantasy type stuff I've read.

Sorry for all the nerd rage earlier, but it's one of those days. It's a sore point for me when people say "This is what I don't like about 3e, but it doesn't matter because all I play is OD&D/1st Ed/2nd Ed, because they're far superior blah blah blah blah."

If you're really that enamored with ye olde D&D, please, PLEASE stop complaining about "us kids today" with our newfangled "feats and skills and multiclassing".

They're *different games*, stop trying to compare them.

-TRRW

 

[der_kluge]

10. Magic Item Creation
The only way you would "unlearn" anything is if you lost a level. Since you can't lose a level from making magic items, this doesn't happen. Experience Points are a measure of a character's life force. Thats why undead suck out XP and levels. They aren't taking away memories, they're draining life force.

I'm sorry, but that's the lamest thing I've ever heard.

Life force is measured by hit points and constitution. XP is not a measure of that. XP is in fact a measure of EXPERIENCE. Hence the name. Reducing XP takes away EXPERIENCE. Period. Stop rationalizing it.

It's a stupid band-aid rule that WoTC implemented because they needed an arbitrary limiting factor on creating magic items. That it. End of story.

 

[Thanee]

1. Multiclassing

Yep, multiclassing isn't perfect yet. There's still a lot of room for improvement.

2. Free Metamagic

Even free metamagic is fine. The problems arise when you can exceed your own power level limit with them. Limit each and all metamagic in the way, the Incantatrix is limited (total spell level including modifiers (use regular modifiers instead for abilities that don't add a modifier) cannot exceed the highest level you can normally cast; i.e. a 5th-level wizard can only maximize 0th-level spells).

3. Synergy

Yeah. Just keep an eye on those during character creation (that is both, DM and players), and disallow abusive combinations. Quite simple, really.

4. Two-Handed Weapons

Yes, two-handed weapons are too powerful still in comparison.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day

It's a matter of playing style. D&D 3E can do both, so it's not really a problem of the system.

6. Neverending Buffs

They already did so in 3.5, at least in many places.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack

It is absolutely basic math, that is required there...

8. Point Buy

Rolling is the standard method. Point Buy is only a variant in the DMG.

9. Rerolls

Err... there are almost no rerolling abilities in the game, you listed pretty much all of them...

10. Magic Item Creation

You do not 'unlearn' things, as you cannot go down a level. XP only exist on the meta-level of the game. It takes personal energy to create a magic item. Your proposal there is ridiculous and would make item creation obscenely overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

 

[greywulf]

And frankly, the CR system *is* a good way for new DMs to judge encounters, until they get a better handle on what their player characters can do. It's not a kludge, it's a helping hand. I'm sure you, in your infinite wisdom, can easily spot exactly how an encounter is going to go down, but some DMs are new, and need things like CR to help them out. It may not be elegant, but it works for what it was intended.

A little nerd rage is a good thing

Read what I wrote again, trw. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I don't like that something that takes a small percentage of your resources is called "balanced". It's not, and it's certainly not heroic. I don't like that we have HD/CR/EL/LA/ECL where just one abbreviation would do. Is that so bad? CR is ok in itself - as you say, it's not elegant, but it's good enough. It's the additional boltonnery and the definition of "balance" that I'm not a fan of.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

Going back and rereading, I can understand your point to a degree. Remember though, that those terms really don't all mean the same thing.

CR: Challenge Rating - An individual monster's difficulty for a group of 4 PCs

EL: Encounter Level - The difficulty of a single monster (or group of monsters) that make up an encounter

LA: Level Adjustment - For PCs/Cohorts. To balance stronger races, they get less class levels, but still count as a higher class level.

ECL: Effective Character Level - Goes hand in hand with LA. An Ogre may have a Level Adjustment of 3, but it also has 4 racial hit dice, bringing its ECL to 7; and as such, would be a balanced PC if the rest of the group were 7th level. 8th+ if you wanted said Ogre to have any class levels.

HD: Hit Dice - This is realistically just a function of hitpoints and a few spells. Most things don't really care about HD, and it doesn't really effect CR all that much. Some creatures have lots of HD, but a relatively low CR, whereas some creatures have a large CR with less HD.

-----

But we're still cool. Didn't mean to single you out like that for the baseless nerd rage.

-TRRW

 

[RFisher]

1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.
Potential Solution: There needs to be a significant drawback to multiclassing while keeping it viable. Currently, the only drawback (XP penalty) is easily circumvented. Even when it isn't avoided, XP loss isn't fun.

I've never found multiclassing in 3e to be a problem. At most, there is the "front-loaded" problem, but I've never seen that be much of a problem in actual play. I dropped the multiclass restriction whenever I ran 3e rather than add more. Have you tried not multiclassing to see what a single-classed character v. a multiclass character of the same level is like?

2. Free Metamagic
Potential Solution: I think this aspect just needs to be removed from the game. Metamagic is fine. "Free" metamagic is not.

I figured nobody would let metamagic magic items into their game the moment I saw them.

3. SynergyPotential Solution: Allow each player access to one sourcebook ONLY outside of the three core rulebooks. This prevents most forms of synergy. Of course it reduces player options so it is not an ideal solution.

That's not a bad solution. It's better for the DM to just rule on a case-by-case basis, but it can be hard to know what's going to be a problem until it becomes a problem.

There are plenty of very enjoyable games, however, that don't use anything outside the core books.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
Potential Solution: (and this is vague) The game needs to support multiple fighting styles by providing viable options for each that don't heavily overshadow the others. Player's Handbook 2 goes a long way towards rectifying this problem, but I don't know if it goes far enough.

Hmm...this seems like another thing that has to do with supplements. In the games I've played in--which have stuck pretty much to the core rules, I haven't seen this problem.

Of course, the proper solution to balancing different fighting styles--if you think they should be balanced--is to use the same mechanics for all of them & leave the style differences to window dressing.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
Potential Solution: (another vague one) Characters should not be able to use their most powerful abilities without limit.

I didn't really follow this, but I think I agree. This solution is also to vague to comment upon.

6. Neverending BuffsPotential Solution: Reduce durations of spells like this, or add costly material or XP costs to reduce their frequency of use.

I'm not a big fan of buff spells. But I'm also not a fan of the trend of reducing spell durations. Costly material components or XP cost to make them less attractive would work for me.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
Potential Solution: Simplify these kinds of feats with a flat penalty and flat bonus. The decision for the player then becomes merely to use it or not.

That seems reasonable to me.

8. Point Buy
Potential Solution: Roll ability scores.

I completely agree. Point buy is handy for some situations--like pbem. Retrofitting a point buy system on D&D generally just doesn't work for me, though. When I want to craft a character, I want a system designed to let me do that. I want a system that lets me make trade-off between different aspect of the character (e.g. ability scores, skills, & feats) instead of just between ability scores. For D&D, I prefer either roll or freely pick.

9. Rerolls
Potential Solution: Don't allow rerolls to change the result of automatic successes or failures.

Another problem caused by using too much from too many supplements? While I haven't seen the problem, that solution seems perfectly fine to me.

10. Magic Item Creation
It costs XP to make magic items. So my character unlearns things for succeeding at a task. How on earth does that make sense?
Potential Solution: Just drop the XP cost for magic item creation. It already costs your character a feat. Or make the creation of magic items difficult by requiring rare components that must be quested for.

Don't take mechanics too literally. For this is the last thing about D&D you'll end up saying "How on [E]arth does that make sense?" about. That said, replacing the XP cost with questing for rare components is an oft used option that works just fine.