"I know the spell to solve the problem!"

[billd91]

Agaon, saying "they are illegal in my world" or "my players don't use them" addresses the issue for your world/campaign but can't really be used as justification why it's not problematic.

Personally, I'm not so sure of that. Play style accounts for a lot. Do the players approach utility spells as 'win' buttons, or options they may choose to use?

I don't value mechanical solutions that restrict play style choices because some play styles make options dysfunctional.

 

[korjik]

I'm playing 3.5E right now, a Wizard-based caster with Craft Wondrous Item, and I find that I never have enough time to learn all the spells in my spellbooks, let alone scribe them. The DM has done a good job there.

I'd rather that there was more advice in the DMG on how and why you'd want to put pressure on time as a resource.



The Paladin's ability to detect magic is a spell-like ability, which means it has "no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components". There's no easy way to detect its casting.

Other than a concentrating paladin. It would be a safe assumption

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes having zero downtime solves the issue. But having no time between adventures, no time for the characters to do anything but adventure (not even a day or two) is a frantic pace, not one used in most campaigns. You're telling me your campaigns never have the "ok you guys saved x, again, take a much needed week off!" It's certainly possible and I have run a frantic pace campaign/game before - but I would not consider it the norm. And more importantly it's actually a fix on the issue (just like allowing sorcerers but not wizards for ex. would be) so can't really be used as an argument that there isn't one.

Speaking only for my group, downtime is used as the players see fit. So far, the PCs I've played- as well as those others have done- have had other things to do rather than scribe scrolls.

There are political games to play, festivals to attend, relatives to deal with, etc. Scroll scribing is for those casters without lives, as it were.

 

[Rogue Agent]

How can they used to enhance a game instead of disrupting it?

Player: "I dust the murder weapon for prints, then I run the prints through the national criminal database."

GM: YOU HAVE RUINED THIS SCENARIO! THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO BAN FINGERPRINTING!

No it doesn't (at least not in 3e, in 1e and 2e scrolls were much harder to come by and could be quests in and of themselves). As stated many times before, scribe scroll is a free feat and 2nd level scrolls are cheap (and don't lose their utility at high levels). Scrolls don't make great combat items, but they are amazing for utility and versatility outside of combat.

It sounds nice in theory, but if you're casting knock scrolls every time you come to a locked door or chest you're just throwing gold pieces away.

Spending a limited resource in order to replace a limitless resource isn't smart play.

 

[Mort]

Speaking only for my group, downtime is used as the players see fit. So far, the PCs I've played- as well as those others have done- have had other things to do rather than scribe scrolls.

There are political games to play, festivals to attend, relatives to deal with, etc. Scroll scribing is for those casters without lives, as it were.

I was addressing his specific point that casters in his campaign don't have the time.

Again, your group does not scribe scrolls and has never scribed scrolls, this is a pretty easy solution to utility scrolls being an issue (obviously since you don't use them they will not be a problem in your group).

But how exactly can you argue, my group has never scribed scrolls and has no experience with this issue, therefore it is not a problem in a group where the wizard does scribe scrolls?



this is from my phone so may be a bit disjointed, sorry.

 

[pemerton]

if you're casting knock scrolls every time you come to a locked door or chest you're just throwing gold pieces away.

Spending a limited resource in order to replace a limitless resource isn't smart play.

Above a certain level, isn't the XP/gold cost trivial?

And there's also the issue about the focus of play - for a group where "limelight"/"schtick" is more important than smart play, then the scene-stealing might be a bigger concern than the cost.

 

[LurkAway]

Player: "I dust the murder weapon for prints, then I run the prints through the national criminal database."

GM: YOU HAVE RUINED THIS SCENARIO! THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO BAN FINGERPRINTING!

I used to write movie scripts for Hollywood. My favourite plot device was to time urgent phonecalls to happen just after the intended recipient left his/her house. Then came the cell phone. Now people can talk at any time, inside or outside the house. It goes without saying that I no longer write movies scripts for Hollywood.

And don't get me started about scenes at the library after the introduction of the World Wide Web!

 

[JeffB]

I voted "bug".

In older versions of D&D (O/A/B/X, etc) it doesn't bother me as much because the MU is so inept at combat (at early levels anyway), so it gives the MU a chance to shine in these other areas.

However with 3.x/PF and 4E, things like this bother me much more as the systems are more focused on allowing each class to be very useful in combat from the very beginning so the arcane casters can shine there too.

I'm not sure what the Fix is- 4E rituals are a step in the right direction, but like Save or Die spells, Instant problem solver spells need to be "nerfed" in some way or dropped altogether. Advice for DMs on how to combat this stuff (ala PF's GMG) is great, but it's a just a band aid, and IME creates an adversarial environment as DMs work doubletime up front to prevent any of these instant problem solver spells from spoiling their carefully laid out adventures. What's the point? Either way it creates a problem.

Maybe we just need to start utilizing a spell roll mechanic for D&D in forthcoming editions? A couple of years back I ran a game of Spellcraft & Swordplay which uses a simple spell roll mechanic, and it kept things in check overall as the Wizard wasn't always having success with any of his instant problem solver spells like Knock, etc.

 

[Mort]

It sounds nice in theory, but if you're casting knock scrolls every time you come to a locked door or chest you're just throwing gold pieces away.

Spending a limited resource in order to replace a limitless resource isn't smart play.

This is true if locked doors are extremely common. As I said upthread though, if a single wand (50 charges) or a few scrolls gets you through several levels (or even the campaign) then it's not.

Further in 3e knock is 100% effective, that's a bit annoying to the rogue who devoted skill points to it yet has to deal with all sorts of possible situational minuses (pathfinder addressed this problem at least).

I'll stick to my original point: if the resource in question is not limited enough (as it is not in 3e) IMO it is a bug. If it is limited enough (as in 4e) then it is a feature.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Having played Harry Dresden FATE, I have to say I (mostly) like their thaumaturgy system. It's basically on-the-fly utility rituals.

By amassing power, you can do things that could essentially be replicated by a huge skill check, and this even applies to physically impossible actions like viewing an area's past.

The downside? Hideously complicated. That's what you get for using on-the-fly anything-goes.