I may not be switching to D&D 3.5 (Crossposted)

[EricNoah]

I was discussing with another member of my gaming group (a player in my game, and my DM in a different group) and we agreed that there was one thing that could very well keep either of us from being interested in switching to version 3.5 of D&D: electronic support. We both agreed that if there are not adequate computer programs for generating characters, spell lists, and monsters (not just raw stats but adding classes, advancing, etc.), we'd be right back where we were when we had nothing. Yes, we might adopt a new rule or two (say, for example, if Harm gets changed). But we, as DMs, are not interested in limping around for months without computer support for this revised edition of the game, especially if the revisions make any substantial changes that trickle down through the rest of the game.

WotC, if you're reading this, know that as always I believe that adequate computer support of D&D is a very high priority. We don't want to wait two years for that support.

 

[gariig]

WotC, if you're reading this, know that as always I believe that adequate computer support of D&D is a very high priority. We don't want to wait two years for that support.

I wish WotC would get with the times. 2E could be done without computer support as character creation was very basic, even with kits. However, with the amount of customization available in 3E it's almost impossible to not use some sort of character generator. I wish WotC would give us better support. Maybe a new program and toss out E-tools.

Gariig

 

[EricNoah]

Re: Re: I may not be switching to D&D 3.5 (Crossposted)

I wish WotC would get with the times. 2E could be done without computer support as character creation was very basic, even with kits. However, with the amount of customization available in 3E it's almost impossible to not use some sort of character generator. I wish WotC would give us better support. Maybe a new program and toss out E-tools.

Gariig

Actually it was during my years playing 2E that I fell in love with using the computer to create and track characters, and get monsters ready for play. Core Rules, as wonky as it was, did the job. Etools could, too, if WotC would get on the stick and start making things happen.

 

[Luke]

Re: I may not be switching to D&D 3.5

WotC, if you're reading this, know that as always I believe that adequate computer support of D&D is a very high priority. We don't want to wait two years for that support.

Completely agree Eric.

Certainly I intend to support the changes in RolePlayingMaster.

I don't yet know if it will be possible to choose a mode for selecting between the two versions. Lets just wait and see how marked the difference is. The word I have so far is that the changes are more along the lines of proper organization and explanation, rather than evolutionary changes.

In my case, the editors available for scripts and data could well mean that individuals could customize RPM for 3.5 themselves. If 3.5 isn't evolutionary, I wouldn't even expect a need for changing the database structure.

 

[Hollywood]

But we, as DMs, are not interested in limping around for months without computer support for this revised edition of the game, especially if the revisions make any substantial changes that trickle down through the rest of the game.

Interesting. I don't know if I completely agree, myself, with it.. but its a valid concern. Personally, even with being a) software architect/engineer by trade, b) being a computer gamer and writing mods for such games as Unreal Tournament and Unreal Tournament 2003, c) being fairly heavily invovled in simulated racing of Nascar Racing 2002/2003 [www.onlineracin.com - for pimpage] and d) being both player and DM for D&D... I simply don't use tons of electronic tools.

Stuff I do use is basically down to a custom char gen that I wrote for myself when playing with some new technology that I use for my PCs as a player and occassionally for major NPCs and ArmyBuilder for my Necromunda playing, some XML based tools to produce house rules and other stuff in various formats, CC2, paint programs, and a simple text editor. I use nearly zero DM aids of which there are multiple reasons for, but perhaps there just isn't a point to me about it. RPGing, and wargaming with Necromunda, is one variety of the things I enjoy doing that doesn't involve a computer. None of this software I use for "prep" really is tied to any particular game or version.

That being said, I'm not particular keen on introducing a computing device to the gaming session or using 3rd party software since its not up to the levels of functionality and usability I attribute to quality software, i.e. Word, Excel, Paintshop Pro, Photoshop, Visual Studio, and so forth. Then again, software of that quality has generally more budgets and design and development staff than is available to most 3rd party folks, so its nothing against them. The quality of software produced by the a-list software providers is the type of quality I expected from WotC.

Maybe if I get a tablet PC I'd change my tune, but even my laptop is too much of a hassle at the table; granted its a fairly beefy laptop due to use as a development platform. With the tablet, to me, it gives you the functionality of the handhelds and you can scribble and make notes, and use software with more ease without needing have room for mouse, keyboard [not to mention no key clicks which my players found annoying], etc.

 

[Chaz]

Eric, I feel about the same as you with one exception. I am in fact thinking seriously about dumping 3rd Ed entirely and going back to 2nd Ed. I still have ALL my 1st and 2nd Ed stuff, and the excellent core rules(1,2 & 2 exp) programs and many other great utilitys for 2nd Ed. Im very close to saying good bye to all new WotC products. I know it wont matter to them what I do. Im only one person after all.
But I have to wonder about the companys future if they can make me feel this way. I have about everything thats been made for D&D and AD&D from the old white box D&D set, to all TSR books / modules made. I still remember the fun I had running a high lev party through the old H series modules. Orcus was sure a lot of fun.
So if they can kill me off as a loyal fan.... then I have to wonder where they will end up.

 

[EricNoah]

Eric, I feel about the same as you with one exception. I am in fact thinking seriously about dumping 3rd Ed entirely and going back to 2nd Ed. I still have ALL my 1st and 2nd Ed stuff, and the excellent core rules(1,2 & 2 exp) programs and many other great utilitys for 2nd Ed. Im very close to saying good bye to all new WotC products. I know it wont matter to them what I do. Im only one person after all.
But I have to wonder about the companys future if they can make me feel this way. I have about everything thats been made for D&D and AD&D from the old white box D&D set, to all TSR books / modules made. I still remember the fun I had running a high lev party through the old H series modules. Orcus was sure a lot of fun.
So if they can kill me off as a loyal fan.... then I have to wonder where they will end up.

I understand, man! When I was alpha testing on and off for eTools, and it looked like it might not ever get published, I started to really and truly contemplate what life without D&D might be like. Or at least what life without being a DM might be like. My time for prepping for games dwindles as I get older, and I need to be able to rely on some useful computer tools to do some of what I consider the time-consuming grunt-work that comes with being a DM. Fortunately, eTools is *almost* where it needs to be for D&D 3.0. If they can finish it up, and get it ready for D&D 3.5, we'll be sitting pretty!

Come on, AV -- I know you can make this happen.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The thing is, as someone alluded to in the thread in GD, there really isn't very good computer support for 3e now. I'm not going to bash e-Tools, but even if it worked correctly right out of the box (so to speak), there are a number of elements to 3.0 that are not addressed with that program: templates, for example. Maybe some of these concerns have been addressed by the MSN group; I have to admit I have shelved e-Tools.

Additionally, I wonder how much character creation will be changed in 3.5? I get the feeling that it won't be much of a change in that area for the most part, based on what we've seen in Dragon - which is, I admit, not much. So it's entirely possible that, beyond a minor patch (maybe even one created by the MSN group), e-Tools will remain perfectly usable. But, who knows? I'd love to see Anthony Valterra address this. Regardless, it still doesn't seem like a deal-breaker to me. I mean, any of the changes outside of character creation will be free for the taking in the SRD, and this stuff wasn't addressed by e-Tools anyway.

Now, don't get me wrong; I'd love to have software that helps with the running/creation of a campaign. I think WotC has made a huge error in not getting more, and better, software out for D&D. It's just that this isn't enough for me to stop playing the game.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

By the way, when it comes to the issue of time-saving, PCGen works fine for creating characters, in my opinion. I have a mapping program (Autorealm) also, so that is taken care of.

If WotC wanted to create a program that really saved me a lot of time, it would include:

* Character generation
* Mapper
* DM utilities - logs, adventure formatting
*---actually, everything that e-Tools was supposed to have been originally. As it is, I still have a number of programs that do the work, they just aren't all in one package, and they aren't all D&D-dedicated programs.

 

[Luke]

If WotC wanted to create a program that really saved me a lot of time, it would include:

* Character generation
* Mapper
* DM utilities - logs, adventure formatting
*---actually, everything that e-Tools was supposed to have been originally. As it is, I still have a number of programs that do the work, they just aren't all in one package, and they aren't all D&D-dedicated programs.

I realize that 3rd edition does create a very strong need for software tools, and I hate to hear about people considering giving the game away (or even the 3rd edition) because of lack of software support. I especially hate to hear it from people like Chaz or Eric.
I realize that theres big gaps in what ETools will do, and thats why I developed RolePlayingMaster - specifically to do what ETools (even MasterTools) wouldn't.

For 2 years now, I've developed RPM according to people's feedback of what they wanted. I have all that you mentioned above, and have done my best to make it clear that if something more or different is needed, I'm listening.
If, for example, you wanted encounter game logs automatically entered into the game calendar/diary, you would just have to ask. The only reason I haven't done this is because I work on areas by request, and that was never requested.

Of course, you may be one of the people that was hit by serious stability/corruption issues of RPM. If so, a new version with a different, "incorruptible" database is almost released.

If you insist that your software is by WotC, I can't help.