D&D General I need a D&D counseling session! Help! (Re: Update ("Argument-Stopping Protocols" -- please advise!))

[Nebulous]

Thanks for your counsel jasper. Point of clarity - my "Jay-zus, man!' was an exclamation, not a moniker. My problem-player doesn't talk about Jay-zus. That's just one of my most exasperated oaths!



We are occultists. Not religionists. We live in and around Hawthorne Valley, which is something like a real-world Rivendell.

We come from the same occult stream which inspired Michael Moorcock -- an Austrian Rosicrucian tradition called Anthroposophy.* Moorcock attended an Anthroposophic school as a youth, which is where he got the Multiverse concept and the concept of a threefold alignment: Law, Balance, and Chaos. Gygax in turn got the threefold OD&D alignment system from Moorcock, though later expanded (by maybe J. Ward or R. Kuntz, IIRC) into the nine alignments of AD&D. Anyway, the D&D Alignment System and the D&D Multiverse (as a concept) ultimately come from Anthroposophy. (There's an article on that here.)

*(Well, I am steeped in that tradition, but have moved on into my own stream.)

Beyond that, I don't want to broach the occultism topic - anyone is welcome to PM me if there are specific questions about this aspect.

Life is beauteous and good here in the Valley. Now, if only I could solve my DMing afflictions! Y'all are helping me. I'm feeling better.

i guess you could say I am occultist too, but I won't reveal my preferred belief system. But your belief system stems from a writer? I'm confused.

Nevermind I looked it up

 

[Big Bucky]

Having vented many of my painful stories, and made "The Case" against my problem-player, I would now like to share the good facets of his personality, our friendship, and our gaming. Otherwise, you may be wondering how on earth we are even friends in the first place, given our friction around the RPG table.

***

Remembering back, I thought and hoped I would be able to skillful and deftly redirect and channel that intense current. And I feel I (and he) have, in some ways, at some times, partially succeeded. But the dam has repeatedly overflowed, and I became overwhelmed.

You need to tell him all of this. Like literally print this out and read it to him. You obviously really care about him. Tell him he is a good friend but you are getting frustrated. If he’s your friend he will understand and want to make things better.

 

[Nebulous]

You need to tell him all of this. Like literally print this out and read it to him. You obviously really care about him. Tell him he is a good friend but you are getting frustrated. If he’s your friend he will understand and want to make things better.

No @Big Bucky, the OP has already told his best friend these things endlessly. This Enworld post is a desperate last straw to see how other people would respond to his terrible situation. The OP has showed his best friend all this crap, it is not helping, he said so.

 

[Big Bucky]

No @Big Bucky, the OP has already told his best friend these things endlessly. This Enworld post is a desperate last straw to see how other people would respond to his terrible situation. The OP has showed his best friend all this crap, it is not helping, he said so.

I think sometimes people get locked into their positions and it helps to step back and remember why you're friends in the first place. This is not a D&D issue. It's a communication and respect issue. That's what needs to be examined.

And I think it's pretty clear that OP is going to continue to play with this person no matter what anyone says. He's just venting.

 

[Nebulous]

I think sometimes people get locked into their positions and it helps to step back and remember why you're friends in the first place. This is not a D&D issue. It's a communication and respect issue. That's what needs to be examined.

And I think it's pretty clear that OP is going to continue to play with this person no matter what anyone says. He's just venting.

Yeah. I think he will too now that you mention that.

 

[Umbran]

I am late to this party, so someone may have already mentioned this, so forgive me if this is a repeat.

But, Table Rule 7 and Table Rule 8 amount to, "I can screw up, and you must forgive me, but if you screw up, that's too darned bad, just take it." That is asymmetrical enough to be... unjust?

And Rule Five "Table Serenity"... telling folks they can't even express honest emotions is a problem.

I'm gong to go with - if you need a list of rules like this, you may have missed a major issue of simply having the overall goals of play aligned at the table.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Whoa, whoa there, thanks for the counsel everyone. I'm feeling better.
I don't need further speculation about what course of action I may choose to take.

It's not "just" venting. I've never taken my problems to the people before like this. I was desperate.

I only intended at first to simply get feedback on establishing an Argument Protocol. But events escalated this week, and I let it all out.

What action I have come to is this:

I'm writing a hand-written letter and mailing it to the player. For the letter, I'm going to snag some of the language from jmucchiello and Big Bucky. And include a print-off of some or all of this ENWorld convo.

As for the exact parameters, I'm going to sleep on it, but my inclination is that, for my peace of mind, I can't game with this friend anymore.

The definiton of "game" may change over time. Perhaps I will feel steady enough to engage in mechanics-less/freeform storytelling formats with him again in the future, such as Play-by-Post (we live in corona-zone N.Y.) and LARP, or not. I don't know.

But I do know that, barring some unprecedented future change in character, I cannot DM with him in a TTRPG that involves rules and mechanics -- which is nearly every TTRPG on earth.

 

[Charlaquin]

That sounds like a responsible decision, @Dungeonosophy

 

[FrozenNorth]

Having vented many of my painful stories, and made "The Case" against my problem-player, I would now like to share the good facets of his personality, our friendship, and our gaming. Otherwise, you may be wondering how on earth we are even friends in the first place, given our friction around the RPG table.

Here are few of possibly many good things, which immediately come to mind:

14) He is basically a good person, and devoted parent.

***
Y'all may be right: it might just be that he only gets super-intense, emotionally distressed, and wonky around gaming. One thing which is coming clearer through this Counseling thread, is remembering that his wife warned me from the start (when we first started playing D&D, last January), that he has always had social difficulties in regard to intensity and competitiveness when playing any sort of game.

With all this in mind, it honestly seems that both of you would have more fun with either a D&D adjacent board game (like Gloomhave) or a DMless RPG.

 

[Eltab]

Having vented many of my painful stories, and made "The Case" against my problem-player, I would now like to share the good facets of his personality, our friendship, and our gaming. Otherwise, you may be wondering how on earth we are even friends in the first place, given our friction around the RPG table.

Here are few of possibly many good things, which immediately come to mind:

1) Before we starting playing D&D, he and I and his wife read the entire Middle-earth stories aloud together. We met each week and took turns reading. We read The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, the Lord of the Rings, and key tales from the History of Middle-earth series. Meeting once a week, it took us exactly two years. That was enriching.

(The "Middle-earth Read-Through Club" then turned into the D&D Club.)

2) My friend supports my Patreon. He has steadily and materially supported my creative writing. Over the years, this has added up to $1700.

3) Recently, another player was going through some hard times, and we stopped the session to address his situation. My friend gave really kind-hearted and solid advice. I was really impressed - it was better advice than I could've thought of. At other times too, when he gives a person a ride home, he will listen and serve as a sounding board.

4) He did honor some of the agreements which I called for at the beginning of March:

-He did at least follow through with picking up a copy of the PHB and DMG for himself. We also split the cost of Xanathar's Guide and Volo's Guide.

-I asked that the garage and walkway to the game-room be cleared of clutter for safety reasons, since one of the other players has some mobility difficulties. And he did that promptly and conscientiously.

5) My friend has a pretty nice space to play - a dedicated office / gameroom with a large carved wooden table that can fit 7 people.

6) Besides playing Tabletop RPGs, our D&D Club also reads D&D fiction together: novels (e.g. The 3E-era Keep on the Borderlands novel) and short stories (e.g. from old issues of DRAGON mag). We take turns reading aloud. Sometimes we'll go out to a cafe and read. That has been fun. The problem-player is no problem there - he reads well.

7) My problem-player bought me the Art & Arcana coffee-table book as a gift.

8) He has helped me scan and print various things for my RPG research and writing. (He has a scanner and good printer.)

9) As the corona-thingy has arrived here in upstate New York, just last week my problem-player outright gave me a video-cam and mic for my computer, so that we might still be able to play via Zoom.

10) He has fixed my computer when it crashed. And only asked a pittance for the repair. And has advised me when I need to buy a new one. He is a tech saint.

11) Last month, he served as driver for a 1.5 hour trip to a university, when four us went to go see a D&D play together. (It's called "She Kills Monsters".) It was hilarious. A good time.

12) In our LARP era last summer, we had tons of fun traipsing through parks and trails while playing D&D (with a deck of cards).

13) He does keep a neat binder with his character sheets and spells. I've emulated him in this regard.

14) He is basically a good person, and devoted parent.

***
Y'all may be right: it might just be that he only gets super-intense, emotionally distressed, and wonky around gaming. One thing which is coming clearer through this Counseling thread, is remembering that his wife warned me from the start (when we first started playing D&D, last January), that he has always had social difficulties in regard to intensity and competitiveness when playing any sort of game.

Remembering back, I thought and hoped I would be able to skillful and deftly redirect and channel that intense current. And I feel I (and he) have, in some ways, at some times, partially succeeded. But the dam has repeatedly overflowed, and I became overwhelmed.

This is good to read. Remember this when he is driving you up a wall.
St. Paul (paraphrase): Whatever is of good repute, think on these things.