I need some ideas for a type of regional poetry...

[KDLadage]

The past few weeks, the team for UMBRAGIA has been working on Volume IV (the book for religious characters) and, in the midst of this, I came up with an idea that I feel is just too good to not include in some future book or re-write of the first two volumes...

I want to include a style of regional/ancient poetry for two of the races of UMBRAGIA. The idea is that I want to model the poetry after two forms of poetry that really exist, but modify it in such a way that it is not such a direct rip-off of the real world.

The SHADAHS are a race of bat-like people (wings and all). They had at one time a warrior-based culture that is coming down in recent times due to the fact that the race is slowly dying off (for more information, see Volume I of UMBRAGIA). I would like to have a style of ancient poetry that came from their early culture that is modeled after Haiku (some sort of hyper-structured sylabic-pattern). Aside from the obvious use of Haiku itself (5-7-5), what other sorts of poetry have exists that have used such a stringent sylabic pattern? Can anyone think of (and know of any examples) of poets using other sylable patterns repeatedly in their work? I am thinking I would like the poetry to have 3-5 lines, limited, structured sylables per line, each line has to represent a complete idea... this sort of thing.

The QUINA are a people that have seen better days. They once ruled a large portion of the continent, but now are relegated to second-class citizens and slaves. I would like to have a style of their ancient poetry that that came from their early culture that is modeled after the Limrick (some sort of fanciful, structured sylable/rhyming scheme). Aside from the obvious use of Limerick itself (9A-9A-5B-5B-9A), what other sorts of poetry have exists that have used a similar sylabic/rhyme pattern? Can anyone think of (and know of any examples) of poets using other sylable/rhyme patterns repeatedly in their work? I am thinking I would like the poetry to have 5-7 lines, less limited in sylables, stringent rhyming pattern, each line has to represent a complete idea... this sort of thing.

Ideas?

 

[alsih2o]

searching aorund, i found this- Special Brazilian kind of haiku

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Here in Brazil, sometimes people like to write haiku using "Guilherme de Almeida style". This means a haiku with the rime following the rule taught by a famous brazilian writer called Guilherme de Almeida (who was one of the first to introduce haiku/haikai poetry in portuguese here). It has a rich kind of rime that goes like this:
- - - - X (X rimes with X and O rimes with O)
- O - - - - O
- - - - X

purty cool, huh?

 

[alsih2o]

dragons ride the air
their might would seem to make right
soar from here to there

this is quick and dirty, but it follows the rules

 

[haiiro]

The SHADAHS are a race of bat-like people (wings and all). They had at one time a warrior-based culture that is coming down in recent times due to the fact that the race is slowly dying off (for more information, see Volume I of UMBRAGIA). I would like to have a style of ancient poetry that came from their early culture that is modeled after Haiku (some sort of hyper-structured sylabic-pattern).

Okeydoke: bat-like suggests sonar, and makes me think of the typical visual representation of sonar waves -- tiny curved lines radiating outwards from a central point. This could be translated into a poetic form pretty easily: the first line consists of one word, then two words, three words, four words, etc. Expressing a single idea/concept would certainly be possible, and the form is similar enough to haiku for real-world knowledge to resonate with the in-game element of Shadah poetry.

There could even be two different styles of sonar poetry: sending and receiving, perhaps. One uses the structure outlined above (one word/two words/etc.) -- that's sending -- and the other uses the opposite approach (five words/four words/etc.); that's receiving. This represents the fact that one of the most important aspects of sonar is that it bounces back.

For longer poems, you could string together several smaller ones (and mix and match if you like): sending, sending, sending; or sending, receiving, sending; etc.

One obvious difference would be outward-looking vs. inward-looking poetry (iconic cultural poems vs. self-reflective poetry, for example), but you could easily assign other roles to the two styles.

 

[CCamfield]

The QUINA are a people that have seen better days. They once ruled a large portion of the continent, but now are relegated to second-class citizens and slaves. I would like to have a style of their ancient poetry that that came from their early culture that is modeled after the Limrick (some sort of fanciful, structured sylable/rhyming scheme).

Limericks? An old culture which once had grand power, and their poetic form of choice is the limerick?

They should (I'm tempted to say "would") be practitioners of epic poetry like Homer, reliving their glorious past in stories of old. Or, if it wasn't really that glorious, glorifying it.

 

[Pielorinho]

Check out this site for ideas. I remember learning about one form of Old Engilsh Poetry that focused on alliteration and syllabic stresses rather than rhyming. Consider something like this for the older culture, maybe:

Then boldly came Belthwyn to the bower
of gold-tressed Gurim. Her guards
raised swords, but swiftly were slain.
And Belthwyn, unbloodied, unbeaten,
Entered his enemy's earth.

Daniel

 

[KDLadage]

First off, let me say THANK YOU. You guys already have my creative juices flowing.

OK... onto some specifig topics of discussion:

searching aorund, i found this- Special Brazilian kind of haiku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in Brazil, sometimes people like to write haiku using "Guilherme de Almeida style". This means a haiku with the rime following the rule taught by a famous brazilian writer called Guilherme de Almeida (who was one of the first to introduce haiku/haikai poetry in portuguese here). It has a rich kind of rime that goes like this:
- - - - X (X rimes with X and O rimes with O)
- O - - - - O
- - - - X

purty cool, huh?

Actually, yes it is pretty cool. I think, however, I will use this married to some of the thoughts from...

Okeydoke: bat-like suggests sonar, and makes me think of the typical visual representation of sonar waves -- tiny curved lines radiating outwards from a central point. This could be translated into a poetic form pretty easily: the first line consists of one word, then two words, three words, four words, etc. Expressing a single idea/concept would certainly be possible, and the form is similar enough to haiku for real-world knowledge to resonate with the in-game element of Shadah poetry.

There could even be two different styles of sonar poetry: sending and receiving, perhaps. One uses the structure outlined above (one word/two words/etc.) -- that's sending -- and the other uses the opposite approach (five words/four words/etc.); that's receiving. This represents the fact that one of the most important aspects of sonar is that it bounces back.

For longer poems, you could string together several smaller ones (and mix and match if you like): sending, sending, sending; or sending, receiving, sending; etc.

One obvious difference would be outward-looking vs. inward-looking poetry (iconic cultural poems vs. self-reflective poetry, for example), but you could easily assign other roles to the two styles.

OK... I like the sonar thoughts... I also like the sending (inward, self-reflective) and recieving (outward, observance) duality.... so:

Sending:
I think I will work with something like this: I will make the poems four lines long. They will have the following pattern:

2A - 3B - 4A - 5B

This means that the lines will have 2, 3, 4 and 5 sylables respectively (total of 14 sylables), with a simple A-B-A-B rhyming pattern. Sending poems are always personal, self-reflective and usually deal with abstract concepts and emotions.

Receiving
I think I will work with something like this: I will make teh poems four lines long (again). they will have the following pattern:

5A - 4B - 3A - 2B

This means that the lines will have 5, 4, 3 and 2 sylables respectively (total of 14 sylables), with a simple A-B-A-B rhyming pattern. Receiving poems are always external, observant and usually deal with concrete concepts.

Variations
Both poems will have a fairly famous variation where every 4th sylable rhymes in a simple C-C-C rhyming pattern. Master poets often meet both the rhyming criteria resulting in something akin to this for a Sending poem:

- A
- C B
- - C A
- - C - B

And for a recieving poem (counting the C pattern backwards):

- - C - A
- - C B
- C A
- B

And now for this comment:

Limericks? An old culture which once had grand power, and their poetic form of choice is the limerick?

They should (I'm tempted to say "would") be practitioners of epic poetry like Homer, reliving their glorious past in stories of old. Or, if it wasn't really that glorious, glorifying it.

Yes, this may seem odd, and I am sure that Epic poems are there. But I wanted something that could easilly fit into the sidebars, or pull-quotes of a book without becoming the book itself...

However, I think you may be right. perhaps one of the gypsy-like people of UMBRAGIA would use the Limrick-style poem instead... Maybe the GOUMIN woud fit the bill?

 

[MThibault]

Yep Anglo-Saxon poetry (Old English) such as Beowulf or Caedmon's Hymn didn't rhyme, it alliterated. It also used variations on 4 or 5 rythmic patterns that were based on the stressed/unstressed syllables not on the total number of syllables.

The form was used, although infrequently, right through the Middle English period. This is a difficult form in which to compose in modern english though, you really have to have an ear for it -- like pop-music -- because the patterns don't really suggest themselves when reading silently from the page.

Caedmon's Hymn

Nu sculon herian heofon-rices Weard,
Metodes meahta and his mod-geþanc,
weorc Wuldor-Fæder, swa he wundra gehwæs,
ece Dryhten, or astealde.
He ærest scop ielda bearnum
heofon to hrofe, halig Scieppend.
Þa middan-geard mann-cynnes Weard,
ece Dryhten, æfter teode
firum foldan, Frea ælmihtig.


Cheers

 

[KDLadage]

First off, let me say THANK YOU. You guys already have my creative juices flowing.

OK... onto some specifig topics of discussion:

searching aorund, i found this- Special Brazilian kind of haiku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in Brazil, sometimes people like to write haiku using "Guilherme de Almeida style". This means a haiku with the rime following the rule taught by a famous brazilian writer called Guilherme de Almeida (who was one of the first to introduce haiku/haikai poetry in portuguese here). It has a rich kind of rime that goes like this:
- - - - X (X rimes with X and O rimes with O)
- O - - - - O
- - - - X

purty cool, huh?

Actually, yes it is pretty cool. I think, however, I will use this married to some of the thoughts from...

Okeydoke: bat-like suggests sonar, and makes me think of the typical visual representation of sonar waves -- tiny curved lines radiating outwards from a central point. This could be translated into a poetic form pretty easily: the first line consists of one word, then two words, three words, four words, etc. Expressing a single idea/concept would certainly be possible, and the form is similar enough to haiku for real-world knowledge to resonate with the in-game element of Shadah poetry.

There could even be two different styles of sonar poetry: sending and receiving, perhaps. One uses the structure outlined above (one word/two words/etc.) -- that's sending -- and the other uses the opposite approach (five words/four words/etc.); that's receiving. This represents the fact that one of the most important aspects of sonar is that it bounces back.

For longer poems, you could string together several smaller ones (and mix and match if you like): sending, sending, sending; or sending, receiving, sending; etc.

One obvious difference would be outward-looking vs. inward-looking poetry (iconic cultural poems vs. self-reflective poetry, for example), but you could easily assign other roles to the two styles.

OK... I like the sonar thoughts... I also like the sending (inward, self-reflective) and recieving (outward, observance) duality.... so:

Sending:
I think I will work with something like this: I will make the poems four lines long. They will have the following pattern:

2A - 3B - 4A - 5B

This means that the lines will have 2, 3, 4 and 5 sylables respectively (total of 14 sylables), with a simple A-B-A-B rhyming pattern. Sending poems are always personal, self-reflective and usually deal with abstract concepts and emotions.

Receiving
I think I will work with something like this: I will make the poems four lines long (again). they will have the following pattern:

5A - 4B - 3A - 2B

This means that the lines will have 5, 4, 3 and 2 sylables respectively (total of 14 sylables), with a simple A-B-A-B rhyming pattern. Receiving poems are always external, observant and usually deal with concrete concepts.

Variations
Both poems will have a fairly famous variation where every 4th sylable rhymes in a simple C-C-C rhyming pattern. Master poets often meet both the rhyming criteria resulting in something akin to this for a Sending poem:

- A
- C B
- - C A
- - C - B

And for a recieving poem (counting the C pattern backwards):

- - C - A
- - C B
- C A
- B

And now for this comment:

Limericks? An old culture which once had grand power, and their poetic form of choice is the limerick?

They should (I'm tempted to say "would") be practitioners of epic poetry like Homer, reliving their glorious past in stories of old. Or, if it wasn't really that glorious, glorifying it.

Yes, this may seem odd, and I am sure that Epic poems are there. But I wanted something that could easilly fit into the sidebars, or pull-quotes of a book without becoming the book itself...

However, I think you may be right. perhaps one of the gypsy-like people of UMBRAGIA would use the Limrick-style poem instead... Maybe the GOUMIN woud fit the bill?

 

[Wayside]

Yes, this may seem odd, and I am sure that Epic poems are there. But I wanted something that could easilly fit into the sidebars, or pull-quotes of a book without becoming the book itself...

However, I think you may be right. perhaps one of the gypsy-like people of UMBRAGIA would use the Limrick-style poem instead... Maybe the GOUMIN woud fit the bill?

If you want sidebars I'd say just use elegiac couplets... no reason you should have to fit a whole poem into one sidebar.

Ancient poets were keen on relating sound, but not end-rhyming. I could see an ancient culture having something like Pindaric Odes, but not limericks (joke "poems").

Also, counting just syllables was never until very recently (with Marianne Moore) a poetic practice. The limerick, for example, is usually anapestic. If you really want to give the sonar some flavor I would read up a little on quantitative verse (Latin/Greek), where syllable length is weighed instead of stress, as in English meters.

It occurs to me that if the Shadah really do have a sonar faculty, you haven't even considered the coolest part of all: they would see poetry. I'm sure that if a culture saw sound, the tools at our poets' disposal would pale in comparison to the wide array of composing poems that, when read aloud properly, doubled as images. Obviously this isn't how real sonar works, but it might be pretty cool for a fantasy race. There could be a lot of other abilities that come out of this as well, such as being able to talk at a pitch out of other races' hearing ranges, being able to shout a warning that was a picture of the danger, etc.

If you can be a bit more specific about what patterns interest you I'm sure I could give you a ton of real world examples. Are you looking for something general like the Sapphic and Alcaic Stanzas, or more specific like the form Berryman borrows from Yeats in The Dream Songs? Or even just a rhyming meter, like terza rima (The Divine Comedy is written in this, rhyming endecasyllabos basically, but they interlock). Come to think of it if you are dead set on rhyming verse, you should look to Italian and French poetry for forms. There is a lot from Petrarch and the Troubadours.

Oh, and the whole 5-7-5 haiku thing is just an English standard. It has pretty much nothing to do with the length of actual haiku. A good modern English poet to check out for Haiku-like forms is Gary Snyder (or any of the Black Mountain Poets). Robert Hass has a book of translations from the core Japanese masters that is good too.