I rarely complain about the price of an RPG product but . . .

[Fate Lawson]

Looks like I was wrong. 10 copies of that PDF have now sold. Of course, 10 is in no way enough to make me think I should reduce my prices but it is more than I had expected.

There's on problem with this experiment though. How many of these sales are actual "volume increase" vs. "cannablized?" In other words, How many are actually to customers that would not have bought the product at any other price vs. those that would have eventually bought the product anway, but decide now was the time, or even were just reminded of the fact that there even was such a product?

 

[philreed]

There's on problem with this experiment though. How many of these sales are actual "volume increase" vs. "cannablized?" In other words, How many are actually to customers that would not have bought the product at any other price vs. those that would have eventually bought the product anway, but decide now was the time, or even were just reminded of the fact that there even was such a product?

I agree. One of the biggest problems with the game industry is a lack of information -- not only of the type you've mentioned but in many other areas. A biggie is: "How many people that buy a product actually use that product in a game?"

 

[Acid_crash]

I like this thread, reading what publishers and game writers are saying in response to what some gamers have complained about for a while now, and will continue to complain about, if only because complaining is so easy and acceptance of the situation and how the industry is is rather hard to do.

I hope you all don't mind a response from a simple gamer who plays the game for the simple fun of it, and traditionally buys products simply because I enjoy reading the various products and to see what cool ideas many of you writers put down on paper for us to mine ideas from. Kudos to any writer who gets published, and Congrats!

However, I am a simple gamer, and I have simple gamer paychecks (errr, rather lacking paychecks at the moment, but a job interview in a couple days could alleviate that problem. ). Okay, as for the SW Miniatures book... 98 pages for 30 bucks, that makes the WEG d6 Fantasy of 30 bucks seem mighty reasonable right now, doesn't it? No thank you WotC.

I am a gamer, and when I had a paycheck, I bought products pretty much randomly because gaming is my hobby (not Magic, Warhammer, or video games...I enjoy them and do buy them, but my favorite is roleplaying games). I tend to avoid WotC because I want to see other companies succeed and many of them put out some mighty fine gaming material that non-WotC D&Dgamers wouldn't even look twice at simply because WotC did NOT publish the book and distribute the material in the product. That is a very important concept, and one that many people understand. I mean, if we did compare products across the industry fairly then Dungeons and Dragons wouldn't be the dominant cash cow it is today.

Let's compare quality (and using the term quality is a purely subjective term, what's good quality to me might not be for you, so take this with a grain of salt). We have the core books from WotC for D&D: for a player - $30; for a DM - minimum $90 and not including any real good guidelines on how to create or make your own adventures or campaign worlds (personally, the DMG is the worst book written). WEG - $30 and get a complete system, no other book needed. M&M - $32.95 and get a complete system, no other book needed. World of Darkness - $20. EQ 1 PHB - $30 for a 400 page full color product. EQ 2 PHB - $30 (I think, it's not out and could be wrong but from what I read this PHB will be really damn cool). Talialanta - $40 for a 500 page rpg book, including GM and Monster Manual and campaign setting (probably one of the best values in gaming that is way way overlooked). Rifts - $25 with rules and game world and monster manual in core book (all other books optional). Gurps - 40 characters book, 35 campaign book (75 for GMs, and that's all you really need).

I mean, other games are out there, written by other companies, and the majority of them are really good games. I am a gamer, and I will play just about all of them, but I am a minority. The majority of gamers who frequent these particular boards are strickly D&D fans, and the majority of gamers I have met in my life (including living in germany, japan, louisiana, and oregon) are D&D fans who have no clue that this website even exists. They play D&D because of name recognition, fan support, and it's traditionally the one that gets the most people in the door. I walk into my FLGS, in there is a new customer asking what game he should buy his kid, clerk always (and I mean ALWAYS suggests D&D, customer buys D&D without seeing other games). It's sad.

I know, it sucks. If a person does not write for D&D (or White Wolf or SJG), then you are a brave person and you deserve all the kudos in the world, if only because your chances of becoming a success are very small.

Consider this a partial rant, partial expose on how a simple gamer sees things from his neck of the world (and it's a pretty small neck ). I can only speak my opinion, but the bottom line fact is that WotC can charge what they do because they have D&D locked up, and people will buy their books and look at their books before any other books are even considered. At least, that's how it is where I live. I'm sorry for non WotC publishers around here, our FLGS has not sold a single copy of any rpg product from Green Ronin, Mongoose, Guardians of Order, Herogames, and Palladium in the last month. (I asked them yesterday, saying I was doing a servey on games that sold, the only ones that sold were WotC and White Wolf, and a couple Gurps, and surprisingly 5 copies of Fireborn phb...and that book has some errors in it).

In the end, prices are high, I don't care, just give me a damn product I can use and enjoy and I am a happy camper. And make it an enjoyable read (my wife dislikes reading most because, to her, they do read like text books).

 

[Man-thing]

I agree. One of the biggest problems with the game industry is a lack of information -- not only of the type you've mentioned but in many other areas. A biggie is: "How many people that buy a product actually use that product in a game?"

That's a huge question. I know myself that I've used maybe 25% of the print products that I've bought. I think the average is closer to 35% for pdf products as I do most of my planning on computer. However, the books that I haven't used directly have often inspired other ideas, so I have very few books that I have felt I've "wasted" any money on.

Plus: A hardback book costs as much as a good meal out with my wife, A softback costs as much as a movie together, and a pdf may mean I miss a comic or two. An investment, as I view it, in any one of these will provide a longer and often more enjoyable experience for my wife and I that a meal, movie or comics.

But I'm a DM so I have lots of stuff. My players are a different matter:

Player 1: will buy anything with the word Dragon in it but nothing else
Player 2: will buy anything with the word Bard in it but nothing else
Player 3: regular buys the Splatbooks v.2 because she recently started playing and does not have the originals and likes coloured pages.
Player 4: used to buy 1 thing a month but is finished university and living on his own now so he needs to organize his life first.
Player 5: believes all information should be free and plays using others books and the SRD (I think he's cheap; but that just an opinion)

However, they all use there books for 1 reason. I said they had to. There is no point buying these books if all your going to do is work from the Core. This has lead to some weird games, but at least their books don't sit and maybe they will buy more of from different publishers.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

I guess I'll throw in my opinion like everyone else.

A lot of hobbies are expensive. Model trains, or cars/boats/planes/etc are one example right off the top of my head. Heck, arts and crafts are expensive! Have your ever gone into a Michaels or Joann Fabrics with a beading or sewing nut and LOOK at the receipt when you're done? I cry for all the books I could have bought treating my wife to her hobby.

But like how gaming is my love, that's hers. Who's spent more money? It's probably tied by now.

But inflation drives all prices up. Just shop smart, watch for sales, and spend your money on what you like. If you MUST own every WotC, or Green Ronin, or what ever book...BUY IT! But shop for the best price. And remeber prices will keep going up. It is inevitable.

Enough rambling, I hate posting early in the morning *yawn*

 

[ShadowDenizen]

Acid Crash wrote:

The majority of gamers who frequent these particular boards are strickly D&D fans, and the majority of gamers I have met in my life (including living in germany, japan, louisiana, and oregon) are D&D fans who have no clue that this website even exists. They play D&D because of name recognition, fan support, and it's traditionally the one that gets the most people in the door. I walk into my FLGS, in there is a new customer asking what game he should buy his kid, clerk always (and I mean ALWAYS suggests D&D, customer buys D&D without seeing other games). It's sad.

Well, I agree with this to a large extent, thugh I think we are a sizable minority.
I'm a grizzled veteran of the gaming genre, and I own/play many, many systems that are not D+D/D20. Sadly, it seems to me to be the case that the industry tends to be moving towards the D20/OGL inprint, though, from what I've seen, we are experiencing some negative feedback about that of late. Don't get me wrong, there's many D20/OGL titles that I enjoy: the "Lone Wolf" setting, the "Midnight" setting, the "Babylon 5" setting, most Necromancer Games' offerings, and "World's Largest Dugeon", to name a few. But I also play most White-Wolf games, TORG, WEG "Star Wars", Deciphers' "LotR", "Middle Earth Role-Playing", the original "Deadlands", "Fireborn", "Champions", "Call of Cthulhu BRP", and Ars Magica again to name just a few.

However, it is true that most LGS I frequent do seem to push D+D (and WotC products in particular.) Sure, it makes sense business-wise, I would guess, but it also speask volumes about the prevalent gaming culture, which, in the long term, affects both gamers and businesses.

Consider this a partial rant, partial expose on how a simple gamer sees things from his neck of the world (and it's a pretty small neck ). I can only speak my opinion, but the bottom line fact is that WotC can charge what they do because they have D&D locked up, and people will buy their books and look at their books before any other books are even considered. At least, that's how it is where I live. I'm sorry for non WotC publishers around here, our FLGS has not sold a single copy of any rpg product from Green Ronin, Mongoose, Guardians of Order, Herogames, and Palladium in the last month. (I asked them yesterday, saying I was doing a servey on games that sold, the only ones that sold were WotC and White Wolf, and a couple Gurps, and surprisingly 5 copies of Fireborn phb...and that book has some errors in it).

Honestly, I think quality sells. That's why many publishers who jumped on the D20 bandwagon initally have either jumped off, or are scaling back, and those who remain put out (for the most part) quality products. I personally recommend many games other than D+D to potential customers (my FLGS clerk is lucky in that they have several savvy gamers to bounce ideas off of about what will sell and what won't, what to order, and what to recommend to customers.)

I tend to avoid WotC because I want to see other companies succeed and many of them put out some mighty fine gaming material that non-WotC D&Dgamers wouldn't even look twice at simply because WotC did NOT publish the book and distribute the material in the product. That is a very important concept, and one that many people understand. I mean, if we did compare products across the industry fairly then Dungeons and Dragons wouldn't be the dominant cash cow it is today.

Personally, I go on a case-by-case basis, and see if something sparks my interest. I speak with my money, and WotC receives comparatively little of it, particularly since A) I prefer fluff over crunch (More prestige classes and feats? No, thank you!), and B) the skyrocketing prices of the WotC material. (Sure, others have increased prices, too, but I seem to see it more in WotC prodcuts than elsewhere.) The last thing I bought from WotC was "the Draconomicon", whereas I've bought more in one month from other publishers than I've given WotC since 3.5 debuted.

I hope you all don't mind a response from a simple gamer who plays the game for the simple fun of it, and traditionally buys products simply because I enjoy reading the various products and to see what cool ideas many of you writers put down on paper for us to mine ideas from. Kudos to any writer who gets published, and Congrats!

I'll second this. All you published authors who take the time to chime in on these boards on various topics deserve a hearty round of congratulations.

In the end, prices are high, I don't care, just give me a damn product I can use and enjoy and I am a happy camper. And make it an enjoyable read (my wife dislikes reading most because, to her, they do read like text books).

I'll also second this (within reason): I just recently picked up both "World's Largest Dungeon" and the "Fury of Shadow", and both were well worth the investment.

 

[Fate Lawson]

I agree. One of the biggest problems with the game industry is a lack of information -- not only of the type you've mentioned but in many other areas. A biggie is: "How many people that buy a product actually use that product in a game?"

An even bigger question (for print products) is "How many of the books sold to retailers actually make it into the hands of gamers, and how many end up just sitting on store shelves collecting dust?"

I mean, it may all be well and good to sell 1,000 copies to the stores, but if only 1 out of 4 end up being actually purchased by gamers, that means your support market is much smaller than the numbers indicate.


The industry as a whole doesn't have a very good feedback loop.

 

[velm]

I think prices are a little on the steep side. Just my humble little opinion.

(I see the justification of looking at spending $30 as a few drinks at the local bar, sure, I can look at it that way. But, when I get a Guinness, I know it will be QUALITY, it will be good and filling. When I see some of those products out there for that price, I have to look at the quality issue as well. I realize there are game designers out there that read this as well, no offense guys, but there are some pieces of cow dung out there. Yet, by the same token, there are some other items that are really well done. For the ones that are cow dung, it reminds me of the phrase: 'If it looks like @#$%, if it smells like @#$%, then it is probably @#$%.' By quality, I mean, mainly the type of work in it, and to a lesser degree the amount of editing done to it. Now everybody has their own version of quality. Some people really really might love the content of MASTERS OF THE WILD, I personally do not think it is worth it. 96 pages for $20 on barbarians druids and rangers. Now why do I think this? well, out of those three, the only one that I really have an desire to play are rangers. I have also been playing long enough to get a good feel for them, if I really want any ideas, I can go thru my dragon collection and review that, or find any ideas online. I am sure there might be some people who are REALLY into all three, and find it a fascinating book, but how much use would I get out of it? Not much.)

Will it stop me from getting things, yes and no. If it is something that I think I will use often, then odds are I will get it. But, I look at it from the point of: all I NEED are the CORE books. That 'NEED' is a pretty important part. I have the core 3e books, anything else is NICE to have. If something DOES interest me to get it, then odds are, I will probably have to go online to get it. I honestly would rather get it from a local store (my current location prevents that), but online seems to be the more cost effective route.
Now, I have tried a variety of games out there, from PARANOIA to BATTLEMECH with a little bit of everything in between.

The thing that I bring up now is the fact that most of what people see is 'D20' this, 'D20' that, along with the Dinosaur that is known as WOTC products.
I would honestly like to see more variety in different gaming styles out there. (Believe me, I am sure there a TONS out there, but for the average gamer or new gamer, they are NOT going to go digging deep in the net to find them, they are NOT going to be able to go to the various gaming conventions to see them. They are going to go the the local store and see DUNGEONS&DRAGONS 3.5.)

 

[Crothian]

I think prices are a little on the steep side. Just my humble little opinion.

(I see the justification of looking at spending $30 as a few drinks at the local bar, sure, I can look at it that way. But, when I get a Guinness, I know it will be QUALITY, it will be good and filling. When I see some of those products out there for that price, I have to look at the quality issue as well.

Well, you can keep your receipt and return the gaming book. You can also resale the gaming book, and I've seen a few books go on e-bay for more then the suggest retail. At the very least you can make some of your money back if its a bust, or you can trade them. I've traded books and got some great details becasue some books I don't like other think highly of and vice versa.

So, the big difference betwween buying drinks and a book, besides the fact you can enjoy the book weeks later, is that you can also return or sale it again.

 

[velm]

Well, you can keep your receipt and return the gaming book. You can also resale the gaming book, and I've seen a few books go on e-bay for more then the suggest retail. At the very least you can make some of your money back if its a bust, or you can trade them. I've traded books and got some great details becasue some books I don't like other think highly of and vice versa.

So, the big difference betwween buying drinks and a book, besides the fact you can enjoy the book weeks later, is that you can also return or sale it again.

Or just not buy it in the first place. Like I said, I never got it. IF it was $10, it would have been an impulse buy, and it would be sitting on my shelf.

(the part about drinks, or you can just swap, a meal in town, or a few dvd rentals, or a movie a week for a month IS the justification for buying it NOT against it, usually. Granted from the quote, it looked like it was against it, but I was refering to quality. That is a common way of looking at budgeting ones money.)