I solved making 5E challenging

[Mort]

So people are talking about how 5E rules generally stack things in favor of the PCs and against monsters, more so in higher levels. Wouldn't the easiest way to fix it be just reverse it? I mean have players make characters based off the systems in the monster Manuel while the DMs follow the generation sytems in the phb.

Now we're back to PCs crawling up against stricly more powerful foes!

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The treat monsters the same as PCs was a big part of 3e. The thing is, this becomes a rapidly escalating commitment for the DM.

As levels get higher, the complexity and options increase exponentially and the amount of prep for the DM skyrocketed.

I ran a 3e game from 1 to 20+ and by the end, statting up the encounters got really, really time consuming. On the plus side, I got really good at short cuts, eye balling difficulty level, and generally planning encounters quickly.

4e really pushed the monsters are NOT PCs angle and had some pretty good tools for quick and effective encounter design. I'm glad 5e took many cues from this because encounter prep (at least for me) has been pretty easy. I certainly haven't had a problem challenging players.

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[Mort]

Tell that to the people in threads like this or this or this.

I've had zero problems with either situation presented, precisely by applying the suggestions already put forth in this thread, namely :

1. Understanding the capabilities of of my players and their characters;

2. Having lots of practice and experience with presenting challenges.

I've rarely found taking away player options (which, let's be clear, it's what your suggestion and both referenced threads are proposing) leads to a better play experience.

Note, I'm not saying "anything goes. " Just that maybe trying an "in system" approach, before applying massive system wide changes is the better and easier option.

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[Uller]

For me...the game gets much harder on my players when I am playing monsters that don't want to just win/survive a fight but to _kill_ the PCs and then that whole auto-crit/two death save failures on a hit vs a dying character come into play. Two hits = dead PC.

In a recent game, our monk fell 50' while fighting several vampire spawn. Not a big deal...high level monks can fall without taking much damage. But that took her away from the paladin. The vampire spawn climbed down after her. She went down. Next round, they tore her to shreds. The Paladin almost went down. He was the only one with a revivify spell or any healing. So if he went down, it would take at least an hour to revive him...no revivify. Suddenly the fight became much more desperate.

ToA has an interesting meatgrinder rule. Set the death save DC to 15.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I've rarely found taking away player options (which, let's be clear, it's what your suggestion and both referenced threads are proposing) leads to a better play experience.

Note, I'm not saying "anything goes. " Just that maybe trying an "in system" approach, before applying massive system wide changes is the better and easier option.

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Did you say that in this thread?

 

[Mort]

Did you say that in this thread?

In that thread, I answered the question asked. It somewhat applies here :

"Question I haven't seen asked yet, what do your players want?

Do they want a grimmer more "realistic" much harder game?

Changing the system to the degree you're proposing (maybe to a different system entirely) when/if your players want to play D&D may be too much.

Or maybe your players want something different and a big change is exactly what's called for.

Communication with them seems to be the key, and their input on the system (especially since you said they are very experienced players) will likely lead to the greatest enjoyment for all parties. "

Or, in other words, make sure your players want it before making massive system changes.

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[MichaelSomething]

In that thread, I answered the question asked. It somewhat applies here :
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Oh you did! My bad.

Honestly, I made this thread in response to all the other complaining threads I linked to in this thread. I was thinking what could help them out and this idea ran into my mind. I'm not running anything at the moment.

The irony is that I think (or it seems like) 5E is very balanced when you run it close to the defaults. I hear that feats, multi-classing, and magic items are not factored into the CR system but it seems lots of people throw them in without considering the side effects of making PCs more powerful then what the system assume.

The games also assumes you run PCs down (and force them to manage resources) by throwing a bunch of encounters by them. Playing it like that is also hews closer to the original style of D&D, but some people are now complaining about needing to use too many encounters. Weird huh?

 

[Rhenny]

The irony is that I think (or it seems like) 5E is very balanced when you run it close to the defaults. I hear that feats, multi-classing, and magic items are not factored into the CR system but it seems lots of people throw them in without considering the side effects of making PCs more powerful then what the system assume.

The games also assumes you run PCs down (and force them to manage resources) by throwing a bunch of encounters by them. Playing it like that is also hews closer to the original style of D&D, but some people are now complaining about needing to use too many encounters. Weird huh?

I agree. 5e default is supposed to be somewhat easy. WoTC's research during the playtest made it clear to them that players actually enjoy winning. That's not to say that failure or loss isn't necessary for developing tension and an ultimate feeling of accomplishment, but it does acknowledge that perhaps the ratio of winning to losing, easy to hard has shifted.

The best thing about 5e (to me) is that it is so easy to modify without breaking so that skillful DMs who understand their players' preferences, can tailor the game experience for them.

It is fantastic that so many people have ideas about making sessions more difficult (or using variety to spice things up).