I think I've figured out power sources...

[Simplicity]

The 4e previews keep mentioning power sources... martial, arcane, divine. And it never really occurred to me until now exactly what they were talking about.

We know that fighters, mages, and clerics all roll a d20 when they attack or cast spells.
In 3.5e, when you swing your sword, you add your BAB plus additional modifiers.
I propose that 4e does *not have* a base attack bonus. It has one attack bonus PER power source. A martial attack bonus, an arcane attack bonus, and a divine attack bonus.
Why? Well there needs to be some modifier to the d20 to show proficiency. Plus, the modifier must be different for fighters and wizards. Otherwise, wizards could just pick up a sword and hack people up all day.

Interesting implications for multi-classing... And surely a cleric has a decent martial attack bonus AND an excellent divine bonus... ? Not really sure.

Bonuses could be done as a formula similar to SAGA skills (I would hope it's that way, actually). Bonus = class level (Focused), half the class level (Trained), 0 (untrained).

 

[Scribble]

The 4e previews keep mentioning power sources... martial, arcane, divine. And it never really occurred to me until now exactly what they were talking about.

We know that fighters, mages, and clerics all roll a d20 when they attack or cast spells.
In 3.5e, when you swing your sword, you add your BAB plus additional modifiers.
I propose that 4e does *not have* a base attack bonus. It has one attack bonus PER power source. A martial attack bonus, an arcane attack bonus, and a divine attack bonus.
Why? Well there needs to be some modifier to the d20 to show proficiency. Plus, the modifier must be different for fighters and wizards. Otherwise, wizards could just pick up a sword and hack people up all day.

Interesting implications for multi-classing... And surely a cleric has a decent martial attack bonus AND an excellent divine bonus... ? Not really sure.

Bonuses could be done as a formula similar to SAGA skills (I would hope it's that way, actually). Bonus = class level (Focused), half the class level (Trained), 0 (untrained).

Well in a way 3.5 had this already.. there were really only 3 types of BAB progression... A fast one, a marginal one, and a slow one.

Not sure if adding a bunch more would really be beneficial.

I'm pretty sure "power source" is just a fancy way of explaining how characters do certain things, and a way of categorizing how effects should appear/interact.

A way of balancing characters without having to compare things that are different.

 

[Simplicity]

Well in a way 3.5 had this already.. there were really only 3 types of BAB progression... A fast one, a marginal one, and a slow one.

Not sure if adding a bunch more would really be beneficial.

I'm pretty sure "power source" is just a fancy way of explaining how characters do certain things, and a way of categorizing how effects should appear/interact.

A way of balancing characters without having to compare things that are different.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm not just talking about types of BAB progression. There must be multiple *different* bonuses to account for the different means of attack.

 

[A'koss]

There must be multiple *different* bonuses to account for the different means of attack.

Yeah, I thought that was pretty much a given as soon as they mentioned that Wizards could make attack rolls with spells... So like the Monk, they'll have two different attack tables. I don't think they'll differentiate between Arcane and Divine though - probably just "Spell Attack Bonus".

 

[Rechan]

I don't think this will be the case for one reason:

You'll see Arcane Defenders and Divine Strikers.

If Power Source=To-Hit progression, then that would mean that the people who are both Melee Guys and don't have a Martial Power Source aren't going to be able to hit stuff as well as the other guy.

Also, if Power Source=To-Hit progression, this means that the Fighter and the Rogue will have the same to-hit progression, while the Paladin (who is a Divine Defender) will hit fewer times with his sword swing than the rogue with his dagger.

 

[A'koss]

That said, the "power sources" themselves I'm sure just refer to the various powers, spells and Bo9S-style manuevers characters can pick up. Also, the attack values themselves are likely to be very tight - like Saga I'm certain you won't see anyone with as low an attack bonus as +1/2 levels...

 

[Scribble]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm not just talking about types of BAB progression. There must be multiple *different* bonuses to account for the different means of attack.

Oh I see what you mean now. So if I'm a wizard and I attack with a martial weapon, then I use the martial attack bonus... but if I attack with an arcane attack then I use the arcane?

Eh maybe... Seems like a lot to track, but maybe.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't think that is right.

I think that the power sources refer to the 'at will', 'per encounter' and 'per day' resources that the different classes will have.

While the wizards have their arcane strikes, power words and spells, the divinely powered classes have their holy symbols, holy words and spells... martial classes will probably have their stances, manoeuvres and strikes...

As Bruce Cordell said in one interview "Every class will have actions based on powers".

i.e. Power sources determine the 'kind' of special actions which different classes get.

 

[Gloombunny]

I don't think this will be the case for one reason:

You'll see Arcane Defenders and Divine Strikers.

If Power Source=To-Hit progression, then that would mean that the people who are both Melee Guys and don't have a Martial Power Source aren't going to be able to hit stuff as well as the other guy.

Also, if Power Source=To-Hit progression, this means that the Fighter and the Rogue will have the same to-hit progression, while the Paladin (who is a Divine Defender) will hit fewer times with his sword swing than the rogue with his dagger.

He's not saying that a class's power source will determine its progressions. He's saying that each class will have separate progressions for its martial bonus, arcane bonus, and divine bonus. Like, a fighter would have a good martial progression and bad arcane and divine progressions. A rogue would have a medium martial progression and bad arcane and divine progressions. A paladin might have a good martial progression, medium divine progression, and bad arcane progression. And so on.

I doubt it's going to work that way, though. I think A'koss's prediction is more likely, that there'll be one bonus for physical attacks (i.e., BAB, just like in 3e) and one for magic. Having different stats for every power source is a whole lot of bookkeeping for very little benefit, especially when they start adding new power sources like psionics.

(Alternatively, the magic attack bonus might just be your levels in the class the spell is from + half your other levels, or something like that.)

 

[A'koss]

I doubt it's going to work that way, though. I think A'koss's prediction is more likely, that there'll be one bonus for physical attacks (i.e., BAB, just like in 3e) and one for magic. Having different stats for every power source is a whole lot of bookkeeping for very little benefit, especially when they start adding new power sources like psionics.

(Alternatively, the magic attack bonus might just be your levels in the class the spell is from + half your other levels, or something like that.)

I suspect there'll just be two different advancement progressions (like Saga, though with 30 levels to cover they may juggle the numbers a bit) - let's call them Good & Poor.

Fighter has Good (Weapon) Attack Bonus, Poor everything else (for the purposes of multiclassing). The Wizard, Good (Spell) Attack Bonus, Poor (Weapon) Attack Bonus. The Fighter/Wizard simply adds up the attack bonuses as per usual, with the Fighter levels providing a (albeit "Poor" progression) bonus to the Wizard's Good (Spell) Attack bonus.

Further, I see the Wizard's, Warlock's and Cleric's "Good" Spell Attack bonuses all stacking if they multiclass.