I want my actions to matter

[tetrasodium]

In 5e all the rules needed to play the game are in the PHB and the DMG is entirely guidelines. In 3e the rules to play the game were in both the PHB and the DMG, not just the DMG. Page 13 under the heading Changing the Rules says, "Every rule in the Player’s Handbook was written for a reason. That doesn’t mean you can’t change some rules for your own game." It's clear from this that the skills rules in the PHB are rules for the DM to refer to. Especially since earlier in the DMG it tells the DM to have the PHB ready to refer to when needed.

This is a case were rules exist on both & the chapter that Bagpuss was quoting from is pretty explicit about the gm having notable leeway as I pointred out earlier.

The DMG skill rules are more general and involve interpretation, not hard rules. What you are looking at in the DMG skills section are some random examples of skills on page 31, and general rules principals on page 34. You are then misapplying the general rules section by saying that since skills aren't mentioned, the PHB skills rules aren't rules.

No, that is the revision of what I wrote. What I wrote was

Spoiler: this

On the DM side of things when it comes to setting the DC those tables you cite are rather meaningless because the DM uses a different method of assigning DCs. The first thing the GM does is decide "who could do [this thing]" & pick an example individual that seems a pretty good match for what they think. Keep in mind that "who could do it" is completely different from "who is trying to do it", the PC might be a mid level whatever, but an awful lot of challenges in the world are intended to be. After that they look at the DCs & pick one they like. That DC may or may not be adjusted up or down as the situation calls for by the GM using bonus types & DM's best friend (+2/-2). If the first attempt fails the players themselves can put their heads together in order to stack the deck by taking additional steps that individually add extra +/-2's to the next check as a result of that teamwork & creative problemsolving.

The actual skills & examples are secondary to the useful "Who Could Do It"

If you look at page 34 of the DMG it gives the rules that apply in general. The rules for spell DCs is a general formula: 10+spell level+caster ability modifier. Monster ability DCs: 10+1/2 hit dice+monster ability modifier. Miscellaneous: 10 to 20 with 15 being default for anything not covered by any other rule.

We were not talking about save DCs, that's a totally different area of design.

The reason you don't see skills in that section on page 34 is because there isn't a general rule formula for it. The skill DC is highly dependent on what the PC is trying to do and the in game circumstances going on. To help the DM figure out the DCs the DM needs to combine the PHB rules and DCs with the DMG advice on modification.

I mostly agree, but answering the question "who could do [whatever the PC is trying to do]" along with any applicable circumstances that might adjust it is more relevant to setting the DC than who is trying to do it The manacles in a small town's drunk tank are almost certain to be of a different quality in make & sizing than those in the dungeon of a bbeg with a likely history of keeping doogooders just as the level of scrutiny from active guards is going to differ. So too might the conditions of the cell holding the shackled individual wearing those manacles All of those combine in ways that notably impact "Who Can Do It", the PHB entries raised earlier by bagpuss are not capable of setting DCs with that level of finesse

In short, you are correct that the PHB DCs are a ballpark, but only because circumstances and DM interpretation can modify those numbers. They are not hard numbers, but they are the base for the task described. @Bagpuss is also correct that the PHB has the core rules for skill checks and is not just there to kinda sort give the players an idea.

You have some of that backwards. I'm the one who brought up the ballpark spitball guessstimate in 377, 368 raised the PHB entries as some kind of holy writ of absolutes.

The player can assume that the DC to climb an uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds is 20, with the understanding that if there is something the DM knows about the situation that the player doesn't, that number MIGHT be modified. The DM should not be changing the DC from 20 to something else without reason, such as knowing that some of those handholds and footholds are loose, making it harder than it appears.

most DMs describe things in more & different detail than the PHB examples. Some of the things noted in those examples are on the player to discover or arrange with their actions, I think there was discussion earlier in this thread about that kind of thing.

 

[bloodtide]

Like your comments about player skill... you realize there's a whole subsection of games devoted to testing player skill, right?

I am unfamiliar with the testing part of the site.

That there are many, many people who like to play that kind of game?

I knew this.

Then there are folks like myself who like that kind of game some of the time, and another kind of game at others?

Knew this too.

But when it comes to games? No, your views are not unique.

And yet no one agrees with me.....guess I bring a whole new meaning to the word Unique.

Before I say more, is this a hypothetical example of something someone might post, or is this your actual take on how RPGs should work?

No hypotheticals here. Though it's just what I like, not what I think all games everywhere should be like. Play your own way.

While I understand the desire to get on with it, this is way too harsh even for me.

I want a fast game. Lots of players hate this and they will run from my game. Though I'm still able to find plenty of good players that think it's great to really play through a lot a gaming and not just goof around and hang out.

If experience in play is what makes players better, then how come brand new players with no RPG experience at all are so often the best and most creative players at the table?

Well, this is not true? Though guess you can get a bunch of bad players in a casual game that goof around for five hours and don't play the game. Then that new player that even just fills out their character sheet is the MVP of that game.

when why did you start this thread? Only to figure out what it means when your players talk about their actions mattering?

As mentioned pages ago. Only half of the Bad Players are True Believers. The other half don't know any other way or fall for peer pressure, cancel culture or other such toxic things. They can be saved. So I was looking for things to say to those players using the ideas and words they would understand.

You've already joined it. The "collective" eats, breathes and sleeps. Oh, and talks on the internet. I look forward to you giving all of those things up in order to leave the collective.

Bit of a big tent there. Why not just say "oh if you live on Earth you are One of Us.....One of Us....One of Us......"

On a more serious note, you've lost any discussion you enter before you enter it. If you refuse to talk on ground common enough for us to understand what you are saying, what you are saying is irrelevant to the discussion.

Ah, but the only winning move....is not to play.

 

[niklinna]

Ah, but the only winning move....is not to play.

If only.

 

[hawkeyefan]

And yet no one agrees with me.....guess I bring a whole new meaning to the word Unique.

No one agrees with you because as far as can be told from your posts, you’re a a terrible GM and perhaps only a marginally better person.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No one agrees with you because as far as can be told from your posts, you’re a a terrible GM and perhaps only a marginally better person.

Mod Note:

You’ve been on ENWorld for nearly a decade. You KNOW insulting other members is NOT cool, and not tolerated. Don’t do it again.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

As mentioned pages ago. Only half of the Bad Players are True Believers. The other half don't know any other way or fall for peer pressure, cancel culture or other such toxic things. They can be saved. So I was looking for things to say to those players using the ideas and words they would understand.

Seriously, WTF? Are you actually claiming some sort of messianic mission? For gaming?

 

[Maxperson]

Bit of a big tent there. Why not just say "oh if you live on Earth you are One of Us.....One of Us....One of Us......"

So, if you aren't going to tell us what your extremely non-standard definitions are, then we get to define them ourselves when we respond to you.

Ah, but the only winning move....is not to play.

Do you understand that this statement in response to me is you saying that you can only win if you don't post?

 

[Maxperson]

And yet no one agrees with me.....guess I bring a whole new meaning to the word Unique.

This is a relatively small environment. If you told us that you believe the Earth is flat, just because nobody here agreed with you, doesn't make that a unique thought. Your opinions here are not unique, just rare, like people who believe the Earth is flat.

 

[bloodtide]

So, if you aren't going to tell us what your extremely non-standard definitions are, then we get to define them ourselves when we respond to you.

This happens anyway. Not like Definitions would help at all as nobody would read them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Do you understand that this statement in response to me is you saying that you can only win if you don't post?

This is only true for Play By Post games.

The DM should not be changing the DC from 20 to something else without reason, such as knowing that some of those handholds and footholds are loose, making it harder than it appears.

So the DM can change the DC with a reason or two or six. So....why can't players just accept this?

Why do some players hear a DM describe a place in the game world the players immediately go "oh, the DC for that is 20. So Say We All". It's not from a rule book...but some how players think they can just say what a DC is......Why?

 

[Maxperson]

So the DM can change the DC with a reason or two or six. So....why can't players just accept this?

Why do some players hear a DM describe a place in the game world the players immediately go "oh, the DC for that is 20. So Say We All". It's not from a rule book...but some how players think they can just say what a DC is......Why?

Um, they can accept it.