This is a case were rules exist on both & the chapter that Bagpuss was quoting from is pretty explicit about the gm having notable leeway as I pointred out earlier.In 5e all the rules needed to play the game are in the PHB and the DMG is entirely guidelines. In 3e the rules to play the game were in both the PHB and the DMG, not just the DMG. Page 13 under the heading Changing the Rules says, "Every rule in the Player’s Handbook was written for a reason. That doesn’t mean you can’t change some rules for your own game." It's clear from this that the skills rules in the PHB are rules for the DM to refer to. Especially since earlier in the DMG it tells the DM to have the PHB ready to refer to when needed.
No, that is the revision of what I wrote. What I wrote wasThe DMG skill rules are more general and involve interpretation, not hard rules. What you are looking at in the DMG skills section are some random examples of skills on page 31, and general rules principals on page 34. You are then misapplying the general rules section by saying that since skills aren't mentioned, the PHB skills rules aren't rules.
The actual skills & examples are secondary to the useful "Who Could Do It"On the DM side of things when it comes to setting the DC those tables you cite are rather meaningless because the DM uses a different method of assigning DCs. The first thing the GM does is decide "who could do [this thing]" & pick an example individual that seems a pretty good match for what they think. Keep in mind that "who could do it" is completely different from "who is trying to do it", the PC might be a mid level whatever, but an awful lot of challenges in the world are intended to be. After that they look at the DCs & pick one they like. That DC may or may not be adjusted up or down as the situation calls for by the GM using bonus types & DM's best friend (+2/-2). If the first attempt fails the players themselves can put their heads together in order to stack the deck by taking additional steps that individually add extra +/-2's to the next check as a result of that teamwork & creative problemsolving.
We were not talking about save DCs, that's a totally different area of design.If you look at page 34 of the DMG it gives the rules that apply in general. The rules for spell DCs is a general formula: 10+spell level+caster ability modifier. Monster ability DCs: 10+1/2 hit dice+monster ability modifier. Miscellaneous: 10 to 20 with 15 being default for anything not covered by any other rule.
I mostly agree, but answering the question "who could do [whatever the PC is trying to do]" along with any applicable circumstances that might adjust it is more relevant to setting the DC than who is trying to do it The manacles in a small town's drunk tank are almost certain to be of a different quality in make & sizing than those in the dungeon of a bbeg with a likely history of keeping doogooders just as the level of scrutiny from active guards is going to differ. So too might the conditions of the cell holding the shackled individual wearing those manacles All of those combine in ways that notably impact "Who Can Do It", the PHB entries raised earlier by bagpuss are not capable of setting DCs with that level of finesseThe reason you don't see skills in that section on page 34 is because there isn't a general rule formula for it. The skill DC is highly dependent on what the PC is trying to do and the in game circumstances going on. To help the DM figure out the DCs the DM needs to combine the PHB rules and DCs with the DMG advice on modification.
You have some of that backwards. I'm the one who brought up the ballpark spitball guessstimate in 377, 368 raised the PHB entries as some kind of holy writ of absolutes.In short, you are correct that the PHB DCs are a ballpark, but only because circumstances and DM interpretation can modify those numbers. They are not hard numbers, but they are the base for the task described. @Bagpuss is also correct that the PHB has the core rules for skill checks and is not just there to kinda sort give the players an idea.
most DMs describe things in more & different detail than the PHB examples. Some of the things noted in those examples are on the player to discover or arrange with their actions, I think there was discussion earlier in this thread about that kind of thing.The player can assume that the DC to climb an uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds is 20, with the understanding that if there is something the DM knows about the situation that the player doesn't, that number MIGHT be modified. The DM should not be changing the DC from 20 to something else without reason, such as knowing that some of those handholds and footholds are loose, making it harder than it appears.