I want separation of DM and PC crunch

[Alisair Longreach]

A thing I'd love to see in the 4E rulebooks is a clear separation of heroic PC crunch and nasty evil villain crunch.

What I want to see in the 4E Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide is that vile feats like Dark Speech and Thrall to Demonlord and all the Inflict Wounds spells, affliction causing spells, spells that create/augment/summon Undead, Symbols of nastyness and Summon Evil Monster spells as well as class abilities that are only appropiate for villains are kept in a Villain's Options chapter in the DMG.

Another thing I'd love to see in the 4E Player's Handbook is a Magic Item chapter with descriptions of magic items that can be made with the spells in the 4E PHB. The DMG should also have a Magic Item chapter but only with the vile and unholy stuff villains use as well as the quirky and complicated stuff like the Rod of Wonder and Deck of Many Things and the various artifacts.

Campaign setting books should be split in two. One main campaign setting book with background history, regional information, deity and church information, write-ups of major npcs, a monster chapter, a chapter with additional class abilities, feats, spells and magic items used by villains and major NPCs.

The other campaign setting book should be the Player's Guide with new class and race descriptions, additional class abilities, feats, spells and magic items that are appropriate for heroic PCs. A short campaign gazetteer containing information about the world that the PCs should know must also be included.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

A thing I'd love to see in the 4E rulebooks is a clear separation of heroic PC crunch and nasty evil villain crunch.

I think I'd really hate that. I like playing in evil campaigns. Not exclusively, but something like a quarter to a third of the campaigns. I don't want to be forced to refer to several books for the basics like spells and feats.

I'm not talking about vile feats and anything like that, but there's non-vile evil stuff, and I think it should be in the PHB.

What I want to see in the 4E Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide is that vile feats like Dark Speech and Thrall to Demonlord and all the Inflict Wounds spells, affliction causing spells, spells that create/augment/summon Undead, Symbols of nastyness and Summon Evil Monster spells as well as class abilities that are only appropiate for villains are kept in a Villain's Options chapter in the DMG.

And swords, of course. Or evocations. Because you use them solely to harm people. That's evil.

Inflict spells aren't even evil, just as cure spells aren't good.

And the rest should stay in the DMG. As long as it doesn't go overly mature/disturbing (like rules for torture), I don't see why you should be virtually forced to play non-evil characters.

And many of the things you mention aren't even for evil characters only. While a cleric can't summon a demon, a good wizard can very well do that, as often as he wants. It's the intent that counts. If you summon a devil to aid you in a fight against some Highwaymen, it's not exactly evil to use them, but if you summon a celestial bear to eat some orphans, it's evil, even if the spell has the [Good] descriptor.

Repeated use of some of those items might make you neutral, but not evil.


D&D should not become black and white, like some cartoon show for small children where everyone is nice to his parents and helps old people over the street, and will always make the "right" choice in the end, and the bad guys are those in black clothes.

Another thing I'd love to see in the 4E Player's Handbook is a Magic Item chapter with descriptions of magic items that can be made with the spells in the 4E PHB. The DMG should also have a Magic Item chapter but only with the vile and unholy stuff villains use as well as the quirky and complicated stuff like the Rod of Wonder and Deck of Many Things and the various artifacts.

I might see a separation on account of simplicity (though I still think it's quite unpractical, and that magic items should be in the DMG because they're plainly in the DM's jurisdiction), but to reitarate: No alignment restrictions for player characters. Assume that they are usually not evil, but don't make evil PCs virtually impossible.

 

[Rechan]

Since 4e Alignment has no influence on rules, I see no point in this whatsoever. You don't want your PCs using it, make no bones about what they can't use.

Furthermore, I not only want rules to pull off a dread necromancer, I want necromancer info in the PHB.

 

[delericho]

No thanks. I'll take the information sorted by subject, and decide what to do with it myself.

 

[danzig138]

I'm with the OP - I want to see this division as well, if for no other reason than to watch the ensuing message board cat fights. This should bring out the OneTrueWayists like nothing else.

 

[Counterspin]

I have to disagree with the OP. In general I'm against giving enemies abilities the PCs don't have access to, and I wouldn't want that concept enshrined in the rule books while making it harder for me to run spellcasters because spells are in two places.

 

[Warbringer]

'The heroes are points of Light in a world of darkness'

I think you'll get something like you've described, at least until the splat books hit

 

[Jer]

Hrm. I kind of disagree. Mainly because I don't want the DMG to be just like the PHB only for villains. What I'd like to see in the DMG is discussion on the underlying principles of the mechanics used in the PHB and the MM - what are the principles used for designing new classes (so that I can design my own), or used for designing new monsters (so that I can design my own) or magic items, or spells, or class abilities - whatever. What are the underlying principles behind encounter design in this new edition? Behind trap design? Behind non-combat encounter design? It's good to know how the designers of a game are thinking the game is going to be used before I start mucking with my own changes, and the DMG seems like the perfect place to put that information. (My perfect vision of the DMG would be 1/3 "advice to DMs on how to run the game", 1/2 "underlying principles of game element construction", and 1/6 "magic item catalog").

As for "evil" stuff - we can always get another "Book of Vile Darkness"-type book down the road. Stuff like "inflict" spells aren't really evil anymore - they might have been back in the day when "reversed" cleric spells were considered "evil" versions, but now they're just another cleric spell. I wouldn't mind seeing a "Complete Villain" type book for the DM, but I'd rather see that as, say, a DMG II than in the core of the first DMG out the door.

 

[MarkB]

'The heroes are points of Light in a world of darkness'

But are they always the PCs?

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I wouldnt mind something that was for NPC's or DM only monsters.
It seems appropriate that evil or long lived NPC's might have access to things that the normal PC would not.