I want to believe

[irdeggman]

Moff_Tarkin,

How about some more information here.

What is the party makeup?

What is the "normal" method the party does for searching for treasure and traps?

 

[akbearfoot]

The way I see it, the illusion can't force them to take any actions or not take any actions. It's not mind affecting. They can know something is wrong and not quite perceive how to pierce the illusion they think might be there. Thats when you resort to the other tactics mentioned. Thats the problem with illusions, people know that sometimes they can fail saving throws, or in character terms be fooled by magic. People usually trust what their eyes see, but they don't always. A non-mind-affecting spell does not have the power to change this.

It sounded like they actually handled the corpse and weren't allowed a save. Then when the PC noticed something was missing that they thought was supposed to be there, everyone started to suspect foul play. That was when the DM allowed them to make a save, then he proceeded to strip away their free will in order to keep them from discovering the truth. Presumeably to save the BBEG. Nothing wrong with recycling BBEGs, but care needs to be taken not to rob the characters of their fair chance.

If the PCs for some strange reason never bother searching for treasure or never use detect magic to look for magic items or magic traps, or people with spells going etc...then it would sound pretty fishy though. But the fact that they had a list of things they wanted to try suggests they are probably smart when it comes to scouring dungeons for shineys.

 

[irdeggman]

The way I see it, the illusion can't force them to take any actions or not take any actions. It's not mind affecting. They can know something is wrong and not quite perceive how to pierce the illusion they think might be there. Thats when you resort to the other tactics mentioned. Thats the problem with illusions, people know that sometimes they can fail saving throws, or in character terms be fooled by magic. People usually trust what their eyes see, but they don't always. A non-mind-affecting spell does not have the power to change this.

Saving throws and skill checks and to hit and damage rolls are all those used metagaming wise by players and DMs to edjudicate actions that PCs take.

No PC knows that a "saving throw" exists. They may know that sometimes magic works and sometimes it doesn't but that is about the extent of it.

The entire point of the saving throw is to ejudicate if the PC believes something or not. If we as players (and DMs) continue to second guess those results then there is no point in ever making the checks in the first place.

If, additional evidence is provided to give reason to doubt something that is another issue entirely. But in this case it was not.

The evidence that something wasn't quite right was the fact that the kama was missing. The failed saving throw is supposed to indicate that the PC believes it wasn't important to the overall illusion. Having PCs continue to act as if it was an illusion after it has already been determined that they beleive it to be true (aka the failed saving throw) totally bypasses the intent of the entire process IMO.

I have said that this does not mean they couldn't or wouldn't search for treasure in what their PCs believe is a reasonable method though. But that has nothing to do with proving or disporving the validity of the the existing illusion. Personally I am not all that sure that a standard method of finding treasure includes casting detect magic though, that is usually a spell reserved for finding out which treasure is more important than others - but it might be a part of the party's standard operating procedure in such cases.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

I have been gone on vacation for a week, and unable to post. In case anyone is still reading I’ll give some more info on the situation.

First however, I want to give an extreme example to show how a PC can believe something is an illusion even though he fails his save. Lets say you have a mischievous gnome illusionist in your party that always summons the same illusionary Ogre to scare off opponents. One day, the gnome gets angry at you and says, “I’m going to summon my Ogre”. He casts the illusion spell. Lets even pretend you have spellcraft so you know what spell its is. The Ogre illusion appears and you fail your save to disbelieved. Must you now fully believe that the Ogre is real and fight/run from it? Must you take illusionary damage when it attacks you?

Here is some more info on our vampire scenario.

We open the coffin and find the illusionary body, then we decapitate/burn it. Upon realizing the Kama is missing, one party member says, “I don’t think this is the real body”. This gives him a will save, which he fails. He then asks the cleric to detect magic. The DM tries to say the cleric would do no such thing since there is no reason for him to believe illusionary magic is at work. After a little arguing, the player gets to cast detect magic. The DM does the typical cop-out move of saying, “Everything is magical. Even the walls and floor” the cleric concentrates on the coffin to pick up a particular school of magic, and gets illusion.

Our rogue does a search on the coffin, rolls pretty well too, and finds nothing. We all determine that there must be something there. If that last body wasn’t the real one then that gaseous form had to go somewhere. That’s when I decide to pour water into the coffin to see if it runs out any cracks or holes. This is where the DM says that our investigations must stop. Our failed will saves and search checks mean that we believe nothing is there and cant investigate further.

One person in our group said he believed that the DMs interpretation of illusions made them to powerful. A low level illusionist could just summon a Pit Fiend and if you failed your will save you were dead. (I don’t think illusions you believe deal illusionary damage, but at least our DM is uses it that way) So he makes the claim that illusionist are now the most powerful class ever, and we should all play one. The DM mentioned that illusions are supposed to be a DM thing anyway.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

One other thing I have to say in the party’s defense.

The big argument for the DM is that we were using out of character knowledge. But before the first Will check was made, PCs were saying they didn’t think this was the real body. In fact, that’s what prompted the save. The only thing that could possibly be taken as player knowledge is the fact that we know illusions exist. But this party has run into a couple of nasty illusions, so we know illusions are real.

None of us have ever read this module, and we know nothing about where the real vampire has escaped to, or if he even managed to escape at all. We have absolutely no knowledge beyond what the DM said that we see. So where is this “out of character” information coming from? What knowledge are we using that our PCs don’t have.

 

[irdeggman]

I have been gone on vacation for a week, and unable to post. In case anyone is still reading I’ll give some more info on the situation.

First however, I want to give an extreme example to show how a PC can believe something is an illusion even though he fails his save. Lets say you have a mischievous gnome illusionist in your party that always summons the same illusionary Ogre to scare off opponents. One day, the gnome gets angry at you and says, “I’m going to summon my Ogre”. He casts the illusion spell. Lets even pretend you have spellcraft so you know what spell its is. The Ogre illusion appears and you fail your save to disbelieved. Must you now fully believe that the Ogre is real and fight/run from it? Must you take illusionary damage when it attacks you?

Give the PC a huge circumstance bonus on his save due to "knowledge".

Now a nat 1 always fails just like a nat 20 always works (for saving throws and attack rolls).

If you wish to ignore the game mechanics that is fine, but like everything in D&D it is supposed to be an abstraction.

Here is some more info on our vampire scenario.

We open the coffin and find the illusionary body, then we decapitate/burn it. Upon realizing the Kama is missing, one party member says, “I don’t think this is the real body”. This gives him a will save, which he fails. He then asks the cleric to detect magic. The DM tries to say the cleric would do no such thing since there is no reason for him to believe illusionary magic is at work.

DM is absoultely correct here.

With the failed saving throw the cleric is now convinced that he was in error about it being an illusion.

Any argument by the player to the contrary is moot. That is the point of the saving throw - to reflect how the PC perceives things.

He had a momentary thought that it was an illusion, but the saving throw (which reflects how he interprets this thought) indicated that he was "mistaken".

After a little arguing, the player gets to cast detect magic.

Mistake on the DM's part.

The "only" reason the PC is casting detect magic is becasue the player still believes it is an illusion while the PC does not.

Absolutely meta-gaming, IMO.

The DM does the typical cop-out move of saying, “Everything is magical. Even the walls and floor” the cleric concentrates on the coffin to pick up a particular school of magic, and gets illusion.

Not necessarily a cop out. It could have been, it all depends on where the cleric is "concentrating" and for how long.

Remember that the spell detect magic works in a specific way depending on where and for how long you are concentrating.

1st rnd presence or absence of magical auras

2nd rnd number of different magical auras and power of the most potent aura (as in faint to overwhelming)

3rd rnd strength and location of each aura. Requires a Spellcraft check to determine the school.

Our rogue does a search on the coffin, rolls pretty well too, and finds nothing. We all determine that there must be something there.

More metagaming. You do not know how successful the PC is on his check.

If that last body wasn’t the real one then that gaseous form had to go somewhere. That’s when I decide to pour water into the coffin to see if it runs out any cracks or holes. This is where the DM says that our investigations must stop. Our failed will saves and search checks mean that we believe nothing is there and cant investigate further.

All predicated on the fact that the players were inserting their personal knowledge into the game mechanics.

One person in our group said he believed that the DMs interpretation of illusions made them to powerful. A low level illusionist could just summon a Pit Fiend and if you failed your will save you were dead. (I don’t think illusions you believe deal illusionary damage, but at least our DM is uses it that way) So he makes the claim that illusionist are now the most powerful class ever, and we should all play one. The DM mentioned that illusions are supposed to be a DM thing anyway.

Wrong on the being dead part. Well for low level illusions anyway - high level ones will cause you to die.

Also it seems like an assumption on the players parts as to how the DM would handle this.

Here is an exedrcise to try. Look at it from the opposite side. The PCs are casting illusions how would the players want the NPCs to handle things if they fail their saving throws?

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

A failed Will save means the illusion still looks and feels real to you. It doesn’t mean you have to believe it s real. Otherwise it would be mind affecting.

There are two ways to get a saving throw against an illusion. One if from interaction, the other (and the one that applies here) is when a PC says “Something fishy is going on” So, when a player gets a “hunch” that something is amiss, does a failed Will save make that “hunch” go away? The player is suspicious then the illusion uses a “Jedi mind trick” to say, “These aren’t the druids your looking for”. That’s sounds like mind affecting to me, and illusions aren’t mind affecting. Before a Will save was even called for, we all had suspicions and hunches that something was wrong. Just because we fail to expose the body as an illusion means that all our intuition has to be thrown out the window.

Now, as far as the way I would expect illusions to be handled if I were playing the illusionist. I would understand that illusions could only go so far, only accomplish so much. I would make an illusion of a PC to “threaten” an enemy, in order to give the rouge flank. I would make the illusion of a woman screaming come from a dark ally. Causing a couple of guards to leave their post to investigate. Illusions work for simple tricks like this, and that’s what I would use them for. But I would fully understand that there were limits on what illusions could accomplish. I would fully understand that my illusions weren’t capable of causing a room full of people to just ignore their intuition and give up on all their hunches and suspicions.

 

[NewJeffCT]

We had an argument in our last game session about illusions and what it means to fail a will save against them.

We opened a door in this dungeon to reveal a vampire sitting on a throne, next to a stone coffin. We kill the vampire, whose gaseous form travels into the coffin. Upon opening the coffin we find the body and decapitate/burn it.

At this point, everybody that participated in opening the coffin, decapitating the body and burning it should get a Will save. You (the group that participated in opening, beheading and burning) are all interacting with the illusion - the SRD specifically mentions interacting with an illusion is a trigger for a Will save. Edited to add: And, since this illusion does not have a touch/tacticle aspect, I would judge it to automatically fail once a PC tried to behead the body. Or, at least give the beheader a huge bonus to an additional Will save after the first.

A missing item would be an additional cause for disbelief even if you all failed your Will saves, provided you know enough about vampires & the gaseous form spell to know that their items go with them. If somebody so much as mentioned that, I would give another Will save with a +4 to the circumstance.

 

[Foxworthy]

A failed Will save means the illusion still looks and feels real to you. It doesn’t mean you have to believe it s real. Otherwise it would be mind affecting.

This quote might help you.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss.

That means that the characters that fail the saving throw don't know anything is amiss. If you roleplay the character as having a hunch that it's not real then you are acting like something is amiss. Which is bad roleplaying since the character doesn't realize anything is amiss.

As for your mind affecting argument it's a bit off. Mind Affecting is nothing more than a descriptor to help determine how the spells work with other spells and immunities.

For instance Command Plants, Command Undead both can control creatures but neither are mind affecting spells.

Not to mention the line "Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others." is in the description of the Illusion school. So even the RAW supports the fact that Illusions spells in general can affect the minds of the people perceiving the illusion.

There are two ways to get a saving throw against an illusion. One if from interaction, the other (and the one that applies here) is when a PC says “Something fishy is going on”

Incorrect. You do not get a Save because something is fishy.

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

You only get a saving throw if you study it carefully or interact with it. Thinking something is fishy nets you nothing against a illusion. You seem to be under a few misconceptions about how illusions work that may be tainting your perceptions.

So, when a player gets a “hunch” that something is amiss, does a failed Will save make that “hunch” go away? The player is suspicious then the illusion uses a “Jedi mind trick” to say, “These aren’t the druids your looking for”. That’s sounds like mind affecting to me, and illusions aren’t mind affecting. Before a Will save was even called for, we all had suspicions and hunches that something was wrong. Just because we fail to expose the body as an illusion means that all our intuition has to be thrown out the window.

Again mind affecting descriptor isn't the only thing in the game that allows a characters senses or mind to be influenced. So yes, if your character failed his saving throw and didn't know anything was amiss then a good roleplayer would ignore his "hunch" because the character beleives nothing is amiss in order to have a hunch that something is amiss.

Also as for your Gnome Illusionist casting an ogre illusion, it could be argued that in that case that the PC would be able to realize the illusion is just that because he has proof that the illusion is fake. And having proof that something is an illusion renders you able to see through the illusion.

 

[Anguish]

A failed Will save means the illusion still looks and feels real to you. It doesn’t mean you have to believe it s real. Otherwise it would be mind affecting.

Failing a saving throw to disbelieve doesn't leave you believing?!?

I think the consensus here is that how the situation unfolded is -itself- fishy. How your PCs obtained the information that the kama was missing and indeed why it was missing is important. What was said and asked, and in exactly what order is all important. It's quite possible that mistakes were made on both sides of the table. It's quite possible the DM was trying to railroad your party to salvage a plot point, which is bad. It's quite possible the players were unable to rationalize the results of their dice rolls, which is bad.

I think the only valuable take-away I can offer here is this; illusion spells don't control how your characters behave. Instead, they control your character's perception of reality. It is up to the player to incorporate a perception they know is false (or even strongly suspect is false) into an imaginary world-view and determine how their PC behaves.

If your example's gnome illusionist "summons" his ogre and your PC is skeptical, it would be reasonable to say "I go up to the ogre and poke it in the eye". The DM asks for a saving throw. You roll a natural 1. Your character fails to disbelieve. He believes the ogre isn't an illusion. Now it's up to you to role-play honestly. "I apologise to the gnome for whatever I did to make him summon a real ogre for once, and congratulate him on finally figuring out how to use a summon spell instead of the usual pathetic illusions. I further congratulate him on making it look completely convincingly as if he was casting an illusion. Then I back away from the ogre before it eats me."

Illusions don't control you. They influence you.