I want to do something cool Every Round!!!

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

What happened to MMORPG's was that some smart folks figured out that making them less time-intensive resulted in a wider audience. More players having more fun. Describing that as 'dumbing down' misses the point. It's about a better return on your average player's time investment.

A (single) recreational activity that pratically demands an investment of time equal to working another full-time job (or caring for a few extra young children) per week for several months before it's rewarding is a questionable use of many peoples free time.

Not to derail this too much, but I'd argue that they've done little to reduce the time demand. But my rising dissatisfaction isn't with the time/reward equation, its with the reward. The best times I've had in MMORPGs are the very things that have been largely eliminated from the genre. I'll freely admit to being in the minority on this.

That reflects a playstyle preference. It has nothing to do with resource management. It has to do with how challenges and the corresponding abilities used to overcome them are quantified in the game's mechanics (a rigid modelling system -rules are the physics of the game world- vs. a looser modelling system -character are free to attempt actions not governed by procedural rules as long as the results can be adequately described in game terms).

Well, everything boils down to a preference -- we're talking about entertainment. The point, though, is that I can always do something 'interesting' from a playstyle perspective -- I can use witty repartee, I can perform feats of derring-do, come up with a cunning plan, etc. What's bugging me is the (real or not) trend towards having to have something 'mechanicly' cool every round; eg. if I'm a mage, I must be able to cast a spell every round, if I'm a fighter, I have to be able to use a different feat every round, etc. To me, it's the difference between a action movie and a thriller -- it's in the ebb and flow, the pacing, the drama. Not that you can't have that in 'resource-free' zones, but I've found that in the absence of resource management, it's a lot less likely. (See the many discussions on whether or not the warlock is boring, for example).

And doesn't a limited ressource pool encourage the hunt for a small set of 'optimal choices'? Wouldn't more/unlimited resources make players less hesistant to use them in different and, assumedly, more creative ways?

Again, not in my experience. Or rather, the results are not to my taste. I've found that (relatively) fewer options and resource management is easier to accomodate from a game design perspective than many options/no resource management. (Although at the extreme of 'I get one type of attack I can use once per round' isn't much fun, either). I couldn't handle a warlock with as many invocations as a wizard got spells, for example. I think a decent sized pool of options from which a limited number are available at any given time is more enjoyable -- in other words, I'd rather play a wizard than a sorceror. Then again, I like the problem solving aspects of the game slightly more than the story-telling (not that I don't like that part, too).

M&M is a lot of fun, but as you say, not everyone's cup of tea. However...

...why is ability to conjure a conjure a ball of explosive fire out thin air 3 times a day any more "realistic" than being able to do so once every six seconds? Last I checked both fell under the heading 'completely impossible'.

Neither D&D nor M&M are realistic. Maybe you just don't like characters in tights?

It's because tights make my butt look big?

Because, in most cases, three times a day is likely to require some trade-offs. Once every six seconds does not.

I've often stated that while the mantra for 3.x was 'options', I much preferred 'choices'.

 

[Woas]

Something cool every round? The reason why certain things in D&D are "cool" in the first place is because they are rare and require planning, luck, time, and knowledge of the cool thing in the first place. By doing something cool every round, you are just going to make that cool thing as mundane as any other common action.

Plus I have a hard time already trying to get my players to SLOW DOWN! My players are trying to cast spells, move 6 squares, draw weapons, drop prone, tell everyone else in the party a 2 minute long tactical plan, swing from chandeliers, drop odds and ends from their hands willy-nilly about the battlefield cause a move-equivelent action is JUST TOO LONG!! Sometimes people forget, your round is mearly 6 Seconds! It is ok if you take a round or two drawing weapons, unslinging shields and generally prepairing for battle. The NPCs do it too.

 

[RangerWickett]

I think you're focusing too much on 'cool.' I believe what he was saying is that he wants players to be able to do something different each round, other than simply rolling attack and damage dice. It doesn't have to be cool in a Jerry Bruckheimer EXPLOSIONS-YAY! sense, but it should be something a little special. I mean, what's more interesting - hopping on a walking mushroom's head in 2D sidescrolling, or popping out from cover, chucking a grenade, then laying down suppressing fire as you move to different cover so your foes are pinned down until the grenade explodes?

Is that little excerpt from a modern First-Person-Shooter 'cool'? Not really. But it requires more tactical thought. You could have rushed in, gunning as you go, then meleed your foes when you got close enough, or you could have hidden and moved into a flanking position, or you could have tossed a grenade behind them so they rush you, letting you mow them down shooting-gallery style. Lots of options. In Mario, though? You just jump on the mushroom's head, or maybe, if you were lucky, throw flaming snot at it.

 

[Mercule]

Something cool every round? The reason why certain things in D&D are "cool" in the first place is because they are rare and require planning, luck, time, and knowledge of the cool thing in the first place. By doing something cool every round, you are just going to make that cool thing as mundane as any other common action.

Agree completely. I'm getting extremely disheartened by some of the current trends that seem to be coming out of WotC. Specifically, I don't like the "per encounter" management from ToB. I also want to scream whenever someone says something like "a level without a new ability is a wasted level".

 

[A'koss]

While it's late, and I'm going to ramble on here a bit, I do like the direction Rodney is going in general... Elevating the game to a more "cinematic" feel (making camp for 8 hours for every 3-4 encounters is far too often IMO), doing cool things more often. That got me to thinking about resource management and how to do "cool things every round" without it getting dull and repetative. I like the idea of increasing risk for increasing reward and I think the game could benefit a lot from it.

One idea that I really liked in IH was in combining skill checks with other actions to create a cool, cinematic maneouver. A successful skill check would augment the action tied to it in some way.

eg. A Move-Action Tumble Check, opposed by the target's Base Attack Check, with success allowing you to attack your foe flat-footed on your next attack. If the skill check fails, you can still make a standard attack. This idea carries over to various skills and allows different ways in which you can attempt to do something cool (every round if you wanted), without resorting to standard resource management (x/day, etc). Use climb to bounce off a wall to get around an opponent, spot to find a chink in the dragon's armor or knowledge (dungeoneering) to spot a structural flaw in a stalagtite where a well-placed arrow shot could bring it down on your enemy. Perhaps Rage requires a Concentration check in there somewhere?

Also, the idea of certain maneuvers requiring that you string together a number of successful rolls (skill checks/successive attack rolls) to produce a greater effect at the end is another one which I think would help.

Eg. A two-weapon maneuver that required you "set up" your target by succesfully hitting him with each weapon at least once in succession which in turn allows you to make a two-weapon "rend" attack on your next attack. If you miss with either attack, you can't make the "rend" attack. If you want to risk it, you can declare that you will try to get in multiple successful "set up" attacks in order to make an even more potent "rend" attack later.

A high level "dazing" attack might entail making two successful "set up" attacks in the same round followed by a third "dazing" attack attempt (this too must be attempted in the same round).

Double-bluff (two successful bluff attempts) in order to set up a devastating sneak attack later, Tumble-Jump to move through your opponent's space without drawing AoO, getting behind him to set him up for a big cinematic attack. Lots of possiblities. These "specials" could be class options, feats or if just skill-based... you could rule they're available to anyone who's willing to attempt them.

Anyway, enough rambling for one night... Tomorrow, spellcasting.

 

[Crothian]

It doesn't have to be something cool every round, just something that fits the character. A Wizard that has to fall back to using a crossbow is now no better then a commoner. Or just a fighter that keeps doing the same "I attack" all the freaking time. I also don't like the X/day abilities as a day can mean a lot of different things. Is it one encounter a day or ten?

http://gamescribe.livejournal.com/71420.html?mode=reply

 

[Berandor]

I got mixed feelings here.

From a designing point of view, I can understand having abilities x/encounter, since it helps making a challenging encounter (now, you might not know whether the group will be rested or down on spells when they come to the final fight). I also think the forced rest is a little silly, but that could also be done with by enforcing time limits.

What I don't agree with is the "every round somethign special" or the "every fight a fight to the teeth" set of mind, which is, too, in this post. Easy encounters serve more than just costing ressources, it serves as a bit of respite before the doom, as a way to see how powerful the PCs have become, etc.

Plus, much is made of differing styles of play in D&D. Well, what if people like ressource management? What if the cool moment when the other players and the DM realize that wizard-player has kept a disintegrate spell just for the occasion of an ambush? What about the stress of running low on ressources? Our archer recently had 20 arrows left and the group was on a different plane. He had 2 arrows left when he came home, and we had several moments where he pondered shooting with Rapid Shot or not, or firing from a distance. Those were cool in a different way, but also in a way that shoud count for something. If the archer's arrows would return after the fight, we wouldn't have had that.

In the same vein, I don't see anything bad with a wizard that has to resort to his crossbow during the rare moment when he's totally out of spells and has neither scrolls, wands, staffs, nor long-duration spells like Force Lance or Flame Dagger prepared. I also recall several cool moments when just that helped overcome a challenge, when the wizard killed the guards with his crossbow, bumped his quarterstaff against the Ogre for the decisive 3 points of damage, etc.

Keeping powerful spells back is a good tactic that in itselfs serves to make these spells more rarely used, and thus more special. If you're always flying, that's not cool in itself. Our barbarian's power attack isn't something cool – he does it every time. His crits and his rage, however, are still cool. Because they're limited.

You don't want a candy-filled playground unless you want to get sick from all the sweets. You want a handful of candy you can either eat immediately, or conserve for the whole trip. Because then each candy is cool and special, and you don't get buried in wrap paper.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

What Berandor said.

One thing I like (ok, one of the many things I like) about Grim Tales is that often a caster will take an extra round to cast a spell to increase his chances of success. I think D&D would be well-served with a similar function -- take an extra round for an extra d6 on your fireball, or take three extra rounds and get a 'free' use of empower, etc. This would let casters still do something cool, give them more tactical choices in combat, and make the spells/day last a little longer.

Hmmm. Maybe I ought to write something up, although I'm sure someone has already done something like that.

 

[el-remmen]

A Wizard that has to fall back to using a crossbow is now no better then a commoner.

People keep saying that like its a bad thing.

 

[Henry]

I mean no disrespect to Rodney, but the idea of this being where D&D should be headed just does not fly with me. For one thing, Book of Nine Swords, while interesting, is certainly NOT what I want to see the D&D game turn into. That's just... too much stuff going on. When everyone has a source of limitless power that produces a predictable range of effects constantly, it leaves the grounding of plausibility so far behind that it turns D&D into Wuxia Theater, where something absolutely fantastic is going on every minute, and this is so far removed from reality that it creates a lack of a frame of reference for me. To me, the fantastic needs an element of the mundane to make it fantastic, otherwise, even the fantastic is mundane. I'm sure some like it, but it turns me off, big time.

To me, the ultimate extreme that this is taken to is like something from one of Stephen Colbert's Tek Jansen excerpts -- sooo out there that it's just "too much."

The ethereal harmonies of the laserpipe orchestra echoed off the solid diamond walls of the Galactic Overlord's pleasure chamber....He was a hulking brute, with a wickedly edged macrosword slung over the back of his metaluminum armor, the kind that would have struck cold fear into the heart of a lesser man. But I was no lesser man. "Mind if I cut in?" I intoned, silencing the smuggler's enraged grumble of objection with a stealthy blast from my deliminator rifle...