I was right about Shield Master

[Mistwell]

The most common and popular bonus actions almost all have an attack action tied to them.

I disagree. The most common uses I've seen have no attack action tied to them (and are usually affiliated with a spell, though not always). Things like Cunning Action, Flaming Sphere, Create Undead, Tiny Servant, Dancing Lights, Unseen Servant, Grasping Vines, Expeditious retreat, Healing Spirit, Shield of Faith, Spirtual Weapon, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Far Step, Healing Word, etc..I guess our experiences differ. But then, I also entered most of the optimization guides, and they also list far more bonus actions untied to attack actions than the ones attached to them.

Should I consider it disingenuous that you are acting like you disagree with me

Thank you for the compliment, but I am not the actor in my family. What you're seeing is genuine disagreement with your view. Do you have a problem with that?

while stating something else that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said about whether bonus actions are tied in the rules to other actions? What does anything you said besides your first 4 words have anything at all to do with bonus actions being tied to other actions. Everything else you talked about was about timing which I never mentioned In the post you quoted. Hopefully you can understand the frustration that causes.

I can't, but then you seem almost constantly frustrated in this thread and I cannot identify with why you're so frustrated throughout this thread, so I suppose it's not surprising I am not understanding your frustration this time either. I didn't mention timing either - I stated the general rule is bonus actions exist unconnected to other actions unless a specific rule says otherwise. There is no effective difference in this debate between timing and connection to an action as it's effectively the same thing almost every time. The timing issues are because it's connected to an action. And, as I stated, the general rule is it's NOT connected to an action, either timing or otherwise, unless stated otherwise in a specific rule. Which is contrary to what you said.

 

[Maxperson]

Ah, my bad. (My fault for not reading the whole thread...how on earth did "simultaneous" even become a point of argument?)

[MENTION=6780961]Yunru[/MENTION]'s claim that you have taken the attack action before you actually take the attack action. He said that getting the bonus action with the attack action meant that you could use the bonus action prior to attacking. I pointed out that "with" meant simultaneous or after and not before.

Or if the attack comes after the push, really.

I agree, but that doesn't seem to be the intent of the feat. It also makes sense for the feat to allow the bonus action after the attack, as the opponent will be off balance or at least more vulnerable to a push due to avoiding the blow or being hit. The feat would allow you to take advantage of that with the bonus action.

 

[FrogReaver]

I disagree. The most common uses I've seen have no attack action tied to them (and are usually affiliated with a spell, though not always). Things like Cunning Action, Flaming Sphere, Create Undead, Tiny Servant, Dancing Lights, Unseen Servant, Grasping Vines, Expeditious retreat, Healing Spirit, Shield of Faith, Spirtual Weapon, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Far Step, Healing Word, etc..I guess our experiences differ. But then, I also entered most of the optimization guides, and they also list far more bonus actions untied to attack actions than the ones attached to them.



Thank you for the compliment, but I am not the actor in my family. What you're seeing is genuine disagreement with your view. Do you have a problem with that?



I can't, but then you seem almost constantly frustrated in this thread and I cannot identify with why you're so frustrated throughout this thread, so I suppose it's not surprising I am not understanding your frustration this time either. I didn't mention timing either - I stated the general rule is bonus actions exist unconnected to other actions unless a specific rule says otherwise. There is no effective difference in this debate between timing and connection to an action as it's effectively the same thing almost every time. The timing issues are because it's connected to an action. And, as I stated, the general rule is it's NOT connected to an action, either timing or otherwise, unless stated otherwise in a specific rule. Which is contrary to what you said.

I’ll keep it simple. You quoted me talking about bonus actions being tied to attack actions (they obviously are, there’s no debate about it, just a simple fact). Then you started talking like you disagreed with me but the things you were disagreeing had nothing to do with what I said. That’s frustrating. I think there’s a name for that kind of thing but can’t think of it at the moment.

 

[Mistwell]

I’ll keep it simple. You quoted me talking about bonus actions being tied to attack actions (they obviously are, there’s no debate about it, just a simple fact).

I listed the instances I am seeing most often are unconnected to the attack action. I explained how I entered the optimization guides and they also use them unconnected to attack actions more often. Your reply of "there's no debate about it, it's just simple fact" is provably false. I will repeat it again: The most common uses I've seen have no attack action tied to them (and are usually affiliated with a spell, though not always). Things like Cunning Action, Flaming Sphere, Create Undead, Tiny Servant, Dancing Lights, Unseen Servant, Grasping Vines, Expeditious retreat, Healing Spirit, Shield of Faith, Spirtual Weapon, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Far Step, Healing Word, etc..

Do you have a response to this, or are you just going to try and fiat over all these uses I am seeing and claim they somehow don't count?

 

[FrogReaver]

I listed the instances I am seeing most often are unconnected to the attack action. I explained how I entered the optimization guides and they also use them unconnected to attack actions more often.

Your reply of "there's no debate about it, it's just simple fact" is provably false.

I said bonus actions are tied to actions. Want me to demonstrate? Look at two weapon fighting, look at shield master, look at pole arm master, look at the monks flurry of blows etc.

There, I've even proven my trivially easy to prove assertion for you. Bonus actions are tied to attacks.

I will repeat it again: The most common uses I've seen have no attack action tied to them (and are usually affiliated with a spell, though not always). Things like Cunning Action, Flaming Sphere, Create Undead, Tiny Servant, Dancing Lights, Unseen Servant, Grasping Vines, Expeditious retreat, Healing Spirit, Shield of Faith, Spirtual Weapon, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Far Step, Healing Word, etc..

There are definitely bonus actions not tied to actions. I never said or implied otherwise. So what if there are? Their existence doesn't undermine my original point that bonus actions are tied to actions.

Do you have a response to this, or are you just going to try and fiat over all these uses I am seeing and claim they somehow don't count?

I'd still argue that the most common bonus actions used in the game are tied to actions and you disagree there and that's fine that we agree to disagree on that. It's tangential to the point that actually started this exchange anyways.

What's not fine is that time and time again you are arguing against something that I never said.

 

[Mistwell]

I said bonus actions are tied to actions. Want me to demonstrate? Look at two weapon fighting, look at shield master, look at pole arm master, look at the monks flurry of blows etc.

There, I've even proven my trivially easy to prove assertion for you. Bonus actions are tied to attacks.

Wow. You appear to either of mispoken earlier, or forgotten what you said, or are shifting your argument. Here is what you said, "The most common and popular bonus actions almost all have an attack action tied to them."

We were never discussing if some bonus actions are tied to attack actions. Of course some are...we've all been discussing one in this thread. I was replying to you claiming the most common and popular ones were tied to an attack action. And I disagree and still do.

I'd still argue that the most common bonus actions used in the game are tied to actions and you disagree there and that's fine that we agree to disagree on that. It's tangential to the point that actually started this exchange anyways.

It's really not, given the point I made, which you replied to, was that "The general rule, right from the basic rules, is "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified." Bonus actions were designed, as a concept, to not require triggers. Only the exceptions in a specific rule changes that."

It sure seems like you forgot what we were even talking about? Discussing if most common bonus actions are tied to an attack action is definitely not tangential to the issue of whether the general rule is for bonus actions that they not be tied to an attack action. It's pretty much the heart of that debate.

What's not fine is that time and time again you are arguing against something that I never said.

Correct. Which I have not done...you just don't appear to recall what you said or what we were talking about

 

[epithet]

...
However, variant rules are generally not allowed: ALDMG: 'only the “Variant: Playing on a Grid” and “Variant: Skills with Different Abilities” variant rules are allowed for use.'

So an AL DM can't make up their own rules or include homebrew rules. An AL DM also can't use variant rules like flanking and other options from the DMG. However, in grey areas where there is room for interpretation they are not constrained to follow Sage Advice rulings or twitter ... they can go with whatever fits their current situation at the table best.
...

Thanks, that's good info.

I think the flanking issue is a little odd, though, since flanking is just advantage and the DM can give advantage whenever he thinks it's appropriate. I guess you just wouldn't call it flanking. "The ogre is distracted by the paladin, standing all shiny there in front of him. You can make your attack with advantage."

Other optional rules are bound to come up from time to time, too. When the halfling says he wants to jump from the pile of crates onto the ogre's back, do you just use the "Climb Onto a Bigger Creature" optional rule, or are you supposed to say "you can't do that?" I mean, most of those action options in the DMG are pretty much the way I would handle things (opposed skill checks) if there weren't an optional rule anyway. Even things like Cleaving - if Conan explodes a kobold with a crit, it just makes sense to do something cinematic with all that extra damage. I guess a lot of those optional rules are really just a convenient reference to help make sure I'm more consistent with my "here's how we're going to resolve that" rulings.

 

[epithet]

The most common and popular bonus actions almost all have an attack action tied to them.
...

For whatever it's worth, the most common and popular bonus action I've seen in play have been a rogue's cunning action shenanigans, followed closely by bonus action spells like healing word and misty step.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didn’t say OP. Said imbalanced. Anyways, I think the game would have been designed a bit differently if bonus actions didn’t have actions tied with them

In general, they don't. The general rule, right from the basic rules, is "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified." Bonus actions were designed, as a concept, to not require triggers. Only the exceptions in a specific rule changes that.

Please refer to the Quotes above for how our conversation got started.

We were never discussing if some bonus actions are tied to attack actions.

As seen above, the comment I made that got the whole ball rolling included the idea that bonus actions are tied to attack actions.

Of course some are...we've all been discussing one in this thread.

Well at least we finally can agree on this one. I was starting to think you were a lost cause.

I was replying to you claiming the most common and popular ones were tied to an attack action. And I disagree and still do.

No, that's what you are wanting to comment about now. But that's not how the conversation started. That comment didn't come up until after our initial 2 comments above. Maybe you should think about why it came up then.

It's really not, given the point I made, which you replied to, was that "The general rule, right from the basic rules, is "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified." Bonus actions were designed, as a concept, to not require triggers. Only the exceptions in a specific rule changes that."

Since my comment that started our conversation didn't include anything at all about what you are wanting to discuss now it was obviously mentioned by me for some reason. It should be easy to understand that it was brought up as the proof of the premise that a sufficient amount of bonus actions are tied to an action and thus with that being true it would be improbable that the game wasn't designed with all of those bonus actions like this in mind.

That you disagree with the thought about most of the popular bonus actions being tied to actions doesn't invalidate the logic I'm using. It only means a different evidence of the premise that there is a sufficient number of bonus actions tied to an action needs shown. That's why I keep saying it doesn't really matter and that it's tangential even though you seem to be so focused, even to the point that you think that's what our discussion has always been about.

It sure seems like you forgot what we were even talking about? Discussing if most common bonus actions are tied to an attack action is definitely not tangential to the issue of whether the general rule is for bonus actions that they not be tied to an attack action. It's pretty much the heart of that debate.

But I've never been trying to discuss if most common bonus actions are tied to an attack action. You keep coming back to the 3rd comment made in our discussion like it's the key area of debate and contention but I keep having to remind you that what started this discussion wasn't that comment. Ultimately, I don't care if we agree on that comment or not because it's tangential to the point of contention that started our conversation.

Correct. Which I have not done...you just don't appear to recall what you said or what we were talking about

LOL

 

[FrogReaver]

For whatever it's worth, the most common and popular bonus action I've seen in play have been a rogue's cunning action shenanigans, followed closely by bonus action spells like healing word and misty step.

Yea, I've seen the rogues use that a lot. I've also seen melee rogues use it less than two-weapon fighting. Most melee characters I see either take shield master or polearm master or crossbow expertise and use the bonus actions granted by them a lot. The Cleric does cast healing word when needed. By and large though, every single turn the melee characters and even a good chunk of ranged characters I see are using bonus actions to get an extra attack and that bonus action attack is almost always tied to the attack action.

There is definitely a greater volume of different abilities (mostly spells) that are not tied to an action, but by and large the ones I see used most often are the round in and round out ones that grant an extra attack tied to the attack action.