Icon rolls - improv tool or player freebie?

[Dungeoneer]

I ran my first game of 13th Age Saturday. Predictably, 3 out of 4 players rolled 5s and 6s and so I struggled to fit all the icon rolls into the story. But my players and I discovered a bigger disconnect.

It seems like icon rolls have the potential to actually represent two very different things: 1) they confer some benefit to the player, either gold or magic items; 2) they are a tool for improvisational play.

This duel purpose seems like a problem. Here's the issue: a player rolls a 6 on his positive relationship with the Diabolist. When I drop a Diabolist-friendly faction into the session that gives his character some inside information, he feels cheated by the fact that he didn't get a magic item instead. Theoretically, I could give his character a benefit AND work the Diabolist into the plot, but that now doubles the amount of stuff I have to fit into an already busy session. Given a lot of 5's and 6's, the session could devolve into an episode of This Is Your Life.

The core rules seem quite schizophrenic on this subject as well. For instance, in the sample adventure Blood and Lightning the players' icon rolls determine who controls Boltstrike Tower, so clearly they are an improv tool. But on page 181 the book states that icon rolls might result in players being given an item by their icon or communicated with by magical servitors. So clearly they are a player benefit.

I also feel like when players are rolling dice and getting positive results, they want to know how those results are going to benefit THEM. They want gold, they want magic items. But they don't care that much whether or not their character gets a mash note from the Elf Queen.

On the other hand as a DM I don't want to just start handing out gold and magic items at the beginning of every session. It seems cheap, and anyway there's only so many magic items a character can legally use so what's the point? I'm also afraid I'd get into situations where player A is mad because player B got a magic sword and player A only got some gold.

I'm curious how others have interpreted icon rolls. Are they story guides? Are they bonuses for the players? Both? Neither?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I dont have an answer but have had the same quastion arise...

And what happens if you dont get to everyone, is there hard feels if player A gets acool sword and Player B gets a cool scenee in game but Player C you couldnt work in

 

[pemerton]

There is some discussion of this in the treasure section of the rulebook.

Treasures handed out on an icon role aren't "freebies". They count against the expected treasure gain for the PC. So your players who got info/contacts/improve rather than loot aren't missing out - at worst they're deferring.

 

[demoss]

OP's thoughts match mine very closely.

Things I'm contemplating:

1) Icon rolls never directly translate to magic or cash. Sure, that might sometimes end up being the way they express themselves, but it's nothing even remotely close to a default option.

2) 6s are mostly player driven. Flashbacks to provide information or single-use magic items when sorely needed, spirits providing aid, etc. They're essentially player currency, available at the average rate of one point every two sessions. The GM might suggest "now would be a good time to...", but it's the player's call.

3) 5s are mostly GM driven. They're story pushes.

...which nicely separates out the two roles, I hope.

EDIT: nothing remotely original about this. I've read about very similar solutions.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I wish more people were talking about there 13th age games... it would make me feel more comfortable running it.

 

[Hawke]

I haven't run into that problem with my players, though they typically aren't power gamers and we're still low enough level they're already fairly close to their magic item count. Assuming I hit that I would guess a few options:

1) Let the players choose ahead of the roll what they're rolling for. This might make them happy and if you're bummed about not using the icons as an improve story tool, you could instead roll as GM against a table of all the icons (or a smaller count of PC icons they selected) and still get some improv on who will be involved.

2) Take an every other session take. This session you've had significant downtime so we'll roll to see if you gained any magic items during the gap. Next session we'll be in the thick of a story, so you're rolling for information or an edge.

Another thing to remember is that the non-magical item boon given by a 6 doesn't need to be defined and played out immediately nor does it need necessarily come to from the DM. Simply giving that ace in the hole to the player (if playing in person maybe marked with some neat physical item) to use when thins get rough and they can use it to get out of a pinch. Think of it like a scene in your favorite heist movie where they pull out the right gadget at the right time and then flash back to how they got it and have it had it with them the whole time.

GMforPowergamers: I'll have to give it a shot, I'm running the first OP adventure path for my group. Never really sure how best to write about that stuff or where and if anybody cared.

 

[biotech66]

I give players the option of either using a die roll or I use their die rolls. If you get a six, you can get a massive bonus to a skill check or even pass hassle free. If a point comes across where loot could be droped in and you've got some dice left, I might bring in an item. If you get a 6, Ill give you a like minded, friendly item. If you roll a 5 ( or have a conflicted or enemy relationship) you get something that will help you but might work against you.

 

[waderockett]

They do serve as both a player benefit and improv tool. Rob Heinsoo has great advice onusing icon rolls in play in this video interview with Mike Shea.

A few things:

"Benefit" doesn't usually mean gold or magic items. Icons and their organizations are a resource the players draw on during play -- they're connected to the world's movers and shakers. It COULD mean gold or a magic item, if that's what makes sense in the PC's situation. (The magic item could even be a loan for a particular mission.) But it could also be valuable information, a few low-level minions to provide backup during combat, a map, pulling strings to get the party out of jail or an audience with a powerful local figure. Think of it as if you had connections with Bill Gates, or Bono, or the Pope -- you can't just ring them up anytime you like and ask for thousands of dollars, or a tank. But you can certainly use those connections to make getting things done easier.

When using icon rolls as an improv tool, don't struggle to include all the results in a session. Use the ones you have good ideas for, and let the players hold onto the rest for later. Maybe the party is having trouble convincing a nobleman to help them -- one PC has an unused 5 with the Crusader and says, "Wait, my Crusader buddies told me about this guy. I can get him to help us." "And you say, "Sure, and the complication is that now you'll owe him a favor. There's a certain unpleasant errand he needs done..."

 

[Dungeoneer]

They do serve as both a player benefit and improv tool. Rob Heinsoo has great advice onusing icon rolls in play in this video interview with Mike Shea.

A few things:

"Benefit" doesn't usually mean gold or magic items. Icons and their organizations are a resource the players draw on during play -- they're connected to the world's movers and shakers. It COULD mean gold or a magic item, if that's what makes sense in the PC's situation. (The magic item could even be a loan for a particular mission.) But it could also be valuable information, a few low-level minions to provide backup during combat, a map, pulling strings to get the party out of jail or an audience with a powerful local figure. Think of it as if you had connections with Bill Gates, or Bono, or the Pope -- you can't just ring them up anytime you like and ask for thousands of dollars, or a tank. But you can certainly use those connections to make getting things done easier.

When using icon rolls as an improv tool, don't struggle to include all the results in a session. Use the ones you have good ideas for, and let the players hold onto the rest for later. Maybe the party is having trouble convincing a nobleman to help them -- one PC has an unused 5 with the Crusader and says, "Wait, my Crusader buddies told me about this guy. I can get him to help us." "And you say, "Sure, and the complication is that now you'll owe him a favor. There's a certain unpleasant errand he needs done..."

Believe me, I've read, watched and listened to everything I could find regarding icons!

What you're describing still doesn't resolve the basic tension: is it a (possibly delayed) mechanical benefit or is it a storytelling tool? If you pitch it to the players as a benefit, they expect to get something out of it, one way or another. And what you are describing are basically benefits/advantages to the player. But then consider the Blood and Lightning example, where icon rolls determine what faction controls the tower. Pretty much pure storytelling. If the High Druid's faction controls the tower the player connected with her MAY be able to leverage this to their advantage, but there's no guarantee. And the player doesn't know that the tower wasn't originally going to be controlled by the High Druid so the impact of their icon roll may be essentially invisible to them.

I understand the 'it can be both' theory, but I think in practice it doesn't work out so well. If icon rolls were clearly primarily intended to be used to grant various advantages to the player, that would be relatively straightforward. If they were primarily supposed to be improv tools, I would explain that to my players and they would go with that and it would be fine. But I think this combination is confusing to them. Heck, it's confusing to me.

As a player, you rolled a d6 and got a 5 or 6. What does that 5 or 6 MEAN? What can you expect it to do? Can you expect to get a magical doodad or a one-time combat bonus? Or should you expect that the story for that session will in some way center on your relationship with an icon? I submit that the answer 'both' is a lot to handle for the DM and that 'either' is going to be unsatisfying for some players.

 

[Storminator]

As a player, you rolled a d6 and got a 5 or 6. What does that 5 or 6 MEAN? What can you expect it to do? Can you expect to get a magical doodad or a one-time combat bonus? Or should you expect that the story for that session will in some way center on your relationship with an icon? I submit that the answer 'both' is a lot to handle for the DM and that 'either' is going to be unsatisfying for some players.

Can you go with "which do you want?" for each player? It seems like the crux of the issue is that you're deciding what they get, and you don't want to botch the decision. So let them decide.

I realize there are also players that just want to be surprised, so this isn't a universal solution . . .

PS