D&D 3E/3.5 Idea for full-attack action replacement 3e

[Rampant]

What if we removed the full attack action and iterative attacks, but then multiplied the base damage dice of weapon attacks based on the character's BaB?

So a level 6 barbarian with a great axe is swinging for 2d12 + mods.

A little tweaking to some feats would be required, two-weapon, a few of the archery feats, and the spring attack chain for example.

It would also make certain natural attack using monsters more deadly so I'm not sure about implementing it across the board.

BUt I'm thinking this would be a lot more fun for fighter types to not have to choose between doing relevant damage and using their cool combat maneuvers (whirlwind, charge, etc) at high levels.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Why would you want to implement this? I think it has potential but the balance really hasn't been tested, not against casters of course, but think about Rogues....They would outstrip Fighters even more depending on the build of course.

 

[kitcik]

Death or sever nerf to:
- TWF (you mentioned)
- crit builds
- sneak attack
- skirmish / precision
- stuff like that maneuver that allows touch attacks one round to boost attacks in the next round
- weapon enhancements that add damage

But, most of all, it kills my wizard's iterative attacks. Wizards have no cool combat maneuvers, but they have iterative attacks. And, dammit, they need them!!! Don't touch my shiny toy!

 

[Rampant]

How?

Assuming the rogue burns a feat or something to grab a greatsword he's still a step or two behind the fighter most levels.

Level 6
rogue: 2d6
Fighter: 4d6

Level 11
Rogue: 4d6
Fighter: 6d6

Level 16
R: 6d6
F: 8d6

and when you consider most rogues use rapiers or short swords the difference is even bigger
Sneak attack. strength mod, enchant bonus none of those get multiplied, just the basic weapon dice.
If anything this nerfs the rogue because it means no more full-attack action sneak attack combos.


Or am I missing something?

Crit builds: Loose many chances, effectiveness when it works goes up.

Sneak attack: looking at the numbers yes the rogue can no longer stack up a half dozen or so sneak attacks on the same turn, in compensation the sneak attacks he does get deal a bit more damage, and he can actually hurt people without it, which means no more running in mortal terror from low level zombies.

Skirmish: This is a buff to skirmishers. Now they don't have to go out of their way to pick up pounce.

Damage boosting weapon enchants: ... Ok yeah they take a hit, might have to drop their enchant mod a point or two.

Wizard iterative attacks: Um huh? I mean if the fighter looses three, why is the wizard worried about loosing one? Admittedly he get's next to nothing out of this change, but with the possible exception shocking grasp I don't think they have a single feature that makes use of it. So I'm nerfing an entire spell... Yeah i don't think anyone besides the invisible joy buzzer fan club cares.

I don't know what that other thing is Kitcik so I can't comment.

 

[Sammael]

Full attack action needs to die. It eats up time and prohibits movement on the battlefield.

Adding additional damage is a very good solution.

TWF as a concept is horrifyingly complicated and broken for classes like the rogue. TWF needs to be severely nerfed.

Skirmish requires movement, so it actually requires the character not to use the full attack action.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, if you think about that kind of change, you should better think about opponents' tactical decisions, too, IMHO.

Unlike 4e defenders, 3.5e tanks do not have real way to keep melee opponents in one place. At lower level, AoO is enough threat. But at higher level, most opponents, especially high HP monsters, can easily ignore one AoO and move onto softer PCs. Also, more and more foes gain some ways to prevent AoO (evil DMs can give tumble skill ranks to dragons...).

At higher level games, the fact that melee monsters must use full-attack action for inflicting the most damage is what preventing them from continually moving away from party warriors. Once engaged in melee, they must choose either to make a full attack against nearby PC or to move away from there and make one attack against more favorable PC.

So, if you remove full-attack action, something like 4e mark or some other additional "enemy locking" ability should be added to melee tank types. Something more effective than mere AoO.

And, as PCs and monsters use the same mechanics in 3.5e, you must add those abilities to many of the monsters, too. It will need a lot of works, I guess.

 

[Greenfield]

It speeds play at higher levels, but it also presumes that every attack hits.

Now, to be clear, this is clearly intended as a boost for melee types, and it will boost them as their levels increase, perhaps even enough to balance the steep power curve of the spell casters.

The down side is, if the DM plans an encounter that doesn't depend on a single big/bad, but on multiple lower level monsters, the warrior ends up overkilling one foe by two or three times, while being killed by the others.

Remember that iterative attacks can be split over several enemies, and frequently are when using ranged weapons. This removes that option.

Also consider the frustration when someone tries this and rolls poorly. One shot at damage that round, and nothing to show for it. Multiple attacks mean multiple chances to hit.

And how does this work with things like Haste? Do they get another swing, or just add to their multiplier?

And what about Cleave or Whirlwind Attack? Do you do multiplied damage to the secondary targets?

Consider it as a potential feat, "All or Nothing". Making it the standard rule changes far to many other things for us to really foresee where all the ripples go.

 

[Sammael]

IMC,

Many fighter maneuvers still have partial effects even on a miss. Not necessarily damage, but stuff like "if you miss the opponent, you gain a +2 non-cumulative bonus against that opponent until the end of the encounter."

Haste adds an additional Move action. Some fighter maneuvers can be executed as move actions, but not many.

The Cleave maneuver uses the original attack roll reduced by 2. If you drop the second opponent and the third is within reach, use the original attack roll reduced by 4. And so on...

Whirlwind Attack is an area of effect attack that deals automatic damage (Reflex save for 1/2).

The Fighter needs the ability to deal a lot of damage to a single opponent to offset the casters' ability to deal moderately high damage to a lot of opponents. He also needs some maneuvers to deal with multiple lesser foes (Cleave, Whirlwind, Ricochet, whatever).

 

[kitcik]

Now, to be clear, this is clearly intended as a boost for melee types, and it will boost them as their levels increase, perhaps even enough to balance the steep power curve of the spell casters.

Power attack - once per turn
strength mod - once per turn
weapon damage enhancements - once per turn
crit chance - once per turn
etc
etc

This is not a boost for melee types, it is a nerf.

It would widen the gap.

 

[Sammael]

Power attack - once per turn
strength mod - once per turn
weapon damage enhancements - once per turn
crit chance - once per turn
etc
etc

This is not a boost for melee types, it is a nerf.

It would widen the gap.

The actual damage increase needs to be playtested, of course.

I did reduce the casters' power in my games by reducing their effective casting level by 1/2.