Idea for Large Races

[KahnyaGnorc]

I've had an interest in large races probably since 2nd Ed AD&D (and loved the 3.5 Ed Psychic Warrior, but not for the broken combos you could make with them . . . just the idea of growing to large size). So, when creating worlds, I typically like to create at least one large-sized race. So, since 4th Ed came out, I've been thinking about how to make a large-sized race. I've come up with an idea and would like feed-back and suggestions for it, so I registered here to post it.

The race would start out at probably 7'+ (large but still Medium), but would have access to special Giant Feats and a racial power. Alter Size would be an At-Will (open to changing it to Encounter, though) Move Action (it takes time to shrink and grow) that would shrink the race down to that of a tall human (and lose access to any Giant Feats) or grow back to their normal size. This is in addition to the standard +2 to 2 stats (probably Strength and Constitution), +2 to a Defense (probably Will), +2 to 2 Skills (will be based on racial culture), and a Bonus Feat (which would allow getting all 5 Heroic Tier giant feats plus two others before the Paragon Tier).

Now, I consider certain elements part of being larger, so these are the characteristics that I put into the feats:

• Increased Space (Giant Stature)
• Increased Weapon Damage (static bonus instead of scaling dice increase) - (Giant Stature)
• Increased strength but decreased dexterity/agility (Giant Strength)
• Easier to hit but harder to take down (Giant Fortitude)
• Increased Reach (Giant Reach)
• Longer Stride/Faster Movement but slower reaction time (Giant Stride)

Giant Feats: Each giant feat would increase the character's normal height by 1' (or 2', not sure right now) in addition to each individual feat's description.

Giant Stature: You are now Large-sized. Your space increases to 4 squares. You gain +2 to weapon damage or +3 for two-handed weapons (increase to +4/+6 at 11th level and +6/+9 at 21st level), but you suffer a -2 to attack rolls with weapons. Also, you become easier to hit and suffer a -1 penalty to AC and Reflex Defenses.

All other Giant Feats require Giant Stature.

Giant Strength: You gain +2 to Strength checks and Strength-based Skill checks, but suffer a -2 to Dexterity checks and Dexterity-based Skill checks. Additionally, you lose the attack penalty of Giant Stature

Giant Fortitude: You gain an additional use of Second Wind per encounter, as well as +2 Fortitude Defense; however, your suffer an additional -1 to AC and Reflex Defenses

Giant Reach: Your range with Melee weapons, Ranged weapons, Ranged powers, and Area powers increased by 1 square. You can choose to start a Close Blast power 1 square away, instead of just adjacent squares. Additionally, Close Burst 1 powers can use your entire space as an origin square, instead of one of your squares.

(Reach is the one feat that I can't think of a downside for and is one that seems to need one)

Giant Stride: Your longer stride increases your speed by 2, but reduces your initiative by 2. Also, you can perform an addition Move Action at the same time as you use Alter Size, any rolls needed would use the same bonuses and penalties you had at the start of the action. The penalty to initiative and the changes to Alter Size remain active even when Giant Feats normally are not (like in shrunken state)

I organized them in what I thought was the most logical groupings, but I may want to decrease the number of feats or perhaps putting all the downsides in Giant Stature and have the other feats be all-positive.

I'd also add a Paragon-level feats:

Improved Giant Reach: You have threatening reach. The size of area and close blast powers increase by 1. All close burst powers use your entire space as an origin square.

I though about adding an Epic-level feat called Titan Stature that increases size category further, but might put that as an epic destiny, instead.

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions (either to improve the idea or as new feats), flames (within reason), etc. welcome.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

A lot of views, not any replies, so either....

• The idea is so good that it needs no improvement (yeah, right...)
• The idea is so bad that it cannot be saved at all (hope not)
• The idea is odd enough that people don't know how to improve it
• No one wants to scare the newbie off (or conversely, ignore the newbie and they go away)

Please, comment on my idea, despite if any of the points above apply.

 

[Fridayknight]

Im just going to go through the feats to help in my way:

giant statue: your character will be very easy to hit. A dungeon corridor may force squeezing (-2 to defences), the -1 to reflexes makes it even worse for ranged bursts against you, as does the hugely increased size. The benefits are the same for Goliath great weapon prowess (which adds proficiencies as well) and there are many more downsides.

Giant strength: this is a bit strange, seeing as DND's whole ethos is based around the characters being of any attributes. The removal of penalty to attack AND adding a +1 bonus for strength increase boosts attack by +3, which is huge compared to traditional feats such as expertise. A removal of the penalty to attack altogether in the first feat would make this more balanced.

Giant fort: once again hemming characters in to a role (not that it is bad to do so). The fortitude bonus as well as high strength makes one NAD immune but again you are removing from other areas, why cant a giant have a high AC? Maybe remove the bonuses to fort, and penalties and keep just the 2*second winds.

Giant reach: im no reach expert but it makes me cringe. its really no help to ranged chars, +1 is nothing compared to farshooter feat, but for melee you are allowing a lot of trouble to happen (what would you do if you crossed this extra reach with my melee-based char that can hit enemies that are 25ft away at lvl 6?) and burst is very good as well. Tone it down a little, but try not to put many penalties on it.

Giant stride: yay its ok!


All in all its a commendable endeavour but there are some feats needed to be changed as well as the removal of penalties - these are hard to remember when you have a game going on. The biggest question is: why can't you just fluff it?

FK out, well done.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Im just going to go through the feats to help in my way:

giant statue: your character will be very easy to hit. A dungeon corridor may force squeezing (-2 to defences), the -1 to reflexes makes it even worse for ranged bursts against you, as does the hugely increased size. The benefits are the same for Goliath great weapon prowess (which adds proficiencies as well) and there are many more downsides.

I was actually basing the damage bonuses and attack penalties on an always-on Power Attack, so maybe take out the penalty (as well as the penalty-remover in Giant Strength). My idea as the main downside of large size is that they are easier to hit, but with vulnerability to AEs and squeezing that large size already gets, I can see that I've gone a bit overboard.

Giant strength: this is a bit strange, seeing as DND's whole ethos is based around the characters being of any attributes. The removal of penalty to attack AND adding a +1 bonus for strength increase boosts attack by +3, which is huge compared to traditional feats such as expertise. A removal of the penalty to attack altogether in the first feat would make this more balanced.

The checks affected would just be straight Str or Dex checks and Skill checks, not to attack or damage rolls. That is why I worded it that way, and not just give them bonuses/penalties to the attributes themselves.

Giant fort: once again hemming characters in to a role (not that it is bad to do so). The fortitude bonus as well as high strength makes one NAD immune but again you are removing from other areas, why cant a giant have a high AC? Maybe remove the bonuses to fort, and penalties and keep just the 2*second winds.

Just the double Second Wind sounds good.

Giant reach: im no reach expert but it makes me cringe. its really no help to ranged chars, +1 is nothing compared to farshooter feat, but for melee you are allowing a lot of trouble to happen (what would you do if you crossed this extra reach with my melee-based char that can hit enemies that are 25ft away at lvl 6?) and burst is very good as well. Tone it down a little, but try not to put many penalties on it.

How about dropping the range stuff, just keep the Burst 1 part and changing the melee part to just making the base reach of weapons (including unarmed) +1 Square, or just say that melee attacks all have reach, and just advice any giant PCs that reach weapons aren't that good for them.

Giant stride: yay its ok!


All in all its a commendable endeavour but there are some feats needed to be changed as well as the removal of penalties - these are hard to remember when you have a game going on. The biggest question is: why can't you just fluff it?

FK out, well done.

I had just "fluffed it out" for larger characters, but, after a while, the mechanical differences between the 9' tall PC and the 9' tall monster were just so much. Some differences (like the monster using large dice for weapons, while the PC just gaining a static bonus) are unavoidable and not too major, but others I wanted to give to the PC without overpowering them, which is why I went a bit overboard with the penalties.

 

[Fridayknight]

I was actually basing the damage bonuses and attack penalties on an always-on Power Attack, so maybe take out the penalty (as well as the penalty-remover in Giant Strength). My idea as the main downside of large size is that they are easier to hit, but with vulnerability to AEs and squeezing that large size already gets, I can see that I've gone a bit overboard.


As you have said, you played the earlier editions that did have the multitude of penalties and bonuses for sizes but if you do want to include penalties make them static and stacking - for all the feats if you want to keep penalties (still not a great idea) add it to the overarching 'giant feats' idea.


The checks affected would just be straight Str or Dex checks and Skill checks, not to attack or damage rolls. That is why I worded it that way, and not just give them bonuses/penalties to the attributes themselves.

Sorry, i must have misread. It sounds fair this way.


How about dropping the range stuff, just keep the Burst 1 part and changing the melee part to just making the base reach of weapons (including unarmed) +1 Square, or just say that melee attacks all have reach, and just advice any giant PCs that reach weapons aren't that good for them.

I like the base reach idea and burst 1, allowing reach weapons is ok (the example I gave earlier was optimized for range). As always, simple works best.

Well done on getting back to me so quickly. FK out.

 

[Fridayknight]

That wasn't very good formatting. Please read inside the quotes as well.

 

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[toshi]

As a reference:
The the adventure 'Thunderspire Labyrinth' there are some duergars that have a power called 'Expand'.
It works once per encounter when first bloodied and has the polymorph keyword. It simple makes you large (2x2 squares, pushing people off those extra fields), gives reach 2 (but no threatening reach), and +5 to melee damage rolls (with a two-handed weapon as lvl 6 brute). Lasts until the end of the encounter.
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Alter Size would be an At-Will (open to changing it to Encounter, though) Move Action (it takes time to shrink and grow) that would shrink the race down to that of a tall human (and lose access to any Giant Feats) or grow back to their normal size.

I'd add a 'shift 1' to 'Alter Size', quite like with the druid's 'Wild Shape'. And you need to add a 'push 1' for the three new occupied squares or a squeezed condition if they can't be pushed away.

This is in addition to [...] a Bonus Feat (which would allow getting all 5 Heroic Tier giant feats plus two others before the Paragon Tier).

Why don't just give them Giant Stature as bonus feat? They'll pick it anyways, I guess, and this way the racial power 'Alter Size' has an effect, which it otherwise does not have until you pick this feat.

Giant Stature: You are now Large-sized. Your space increases to 4 squares. You gain +2 to weapon damage or +3 for two-handed weapons (increase to +4/+6 at 11th level and +6/+9 at 21st level), but you suffer a -2 to attack rolls with weapons. Also, you become easier to hit and suffer a -1 penalty to AC and Reflex Defenses.

Minus two to attack is damn much. And usually increassing the damage dice by one step only adds 1 point of average damage. And why reduce AC? Back in 3.x when there was something like natural armor, the larger you were the higher your natural AC was. Large creatures are easier to 'touch', but that is only the Reflex defense, not AC. I'd probaby go with something like this:
"You are large (2x2 squares), gain +2/+3/+4 to melee damage rolls and suffer -1 to attack and Reflex defense."

Giant Strength: You gain +2 to Strength checks and Strength-based Skill checks, but suffer a -2 to Dexterity checks and Dexterity-based Skill checks. Additionally, you lose the attack penalty of Giant Stature

(sounds fine to me)

Giant Fortitude: You gain an additional use of Second Wind per encounter, as well as +2 Fortitude Defense; however, your suffer an additional -1 to AC and Reflex Defenses

A second use of second wind while making him nearly invulnerable regarding Fortitude but a sure hit against Reflex? I don't know... As I said above, I don't see why there should be a -1 to AC. Why not simply like this:
increase max Hit Points and Healing Surge value by Strength modifier, gain +1 to Fortitude defense, and +2 to Endurance checks.

Giant Reach: Your range with Melee weapons, Ranged weapons, Ranged powers, and Area powers increased by 1 square. You can choose to start a Close Blast power 1 square away, instead of just adjacent squares. Additionally, Close Burst 1 powers can use your entire space as an origin square, instead of one of your squares.

This is way too good! Just gaining reach +1 is enough for one heroic feat. I'd keep it simple, changing nothing for ranged attacks.
And for the Close Bursts - this is way too good:

Size - Burst - Squares

Medi. -- 1 -- 08
Large -- 1 -- 12

Medi. -- 2 -- 24
Large -- 2 -- 32

Medi. -- 3 -- 48
Large -- 3 -- 60

You see, this greatly improves Close Bursts. But you have to deal with it, because you are already large. This problem muss be addressed when becoming large (aka 'Alter Size'/'Giant Stature')
Just an idea: while large change close bursts to close blasts of (original size x 2)+1:

Size - Area - Squares

Medi. - Burst 1 - 08 
Large - Blast 3 - 09

Medi. - Burst 2 - 24
Large - Blast 5 - 25

Medi. - Burst 3 - 48
Large - Blast 7 - 49

This way you have always just one additional square targeted, and you have something like 'a close burst with reach'...

Giant Stride: Your longer stride increases your speed by 2, but reduces your initiative by 2. Also, you can perform an addition Move Action at the same time as you use Alter Size, any rolls needed would use the same bonuses and penalties you had at the start of the action. The penalty to initiative and the changes to Alter Size remain active even when Giant Feats normally are not (like in shrunken state)

Why do you keep them while medium? Why the additional Move action? Keep it simple: "You can still move your speed while using 'Alter Size'." This even prevents doing different things with the move action other than moving. +2 Speed and -2 Initiative are fine, I think I'd even add something like add +3 instead of +2 to your speed while running.

I'd also add a Paragon-level feat:
Improved Giant Reach: You have threatening reach. The size of area and close blast powers increase by 1. All close burst powers use your entire space as an origin square.

As above, I think the Burst-thing is too overpowered. Threatening Reach is very good anyways, especially since you are usually making MBAs (OAs) with at-will powers at paragon tier. The only question is if the threatening reach should be limited to 2 squares, because with a reach weapon you could threat 60 (!!!) squares - which is like everybody around. *yell* "Nobody moves, nobody get's hurt!" Well, yeah, it should be limited...

I though about adding an Epic-level feat called Titan Stature that increases size category further, but might put that as an epic destiny, instead.

Sounds interesting for an epic destiny.
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Well, as you can see I've been thinking about balanced large PC races as well...
I hope my ideas can help a bit.

toshi

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Good points. However, the reason behind the Close Burst 1 effect is for melee AE effects. If you are spinning around with your weapon, you'd still strike at all your adjacent targets. Yes, you have 4 more potential targets for a Close Burst 1, but you are also a target for 4 more potential melee attackers (without reach, even).

The reason I kept the stride while they are medium is to prevent any initiative weirdness, as well as allowing the move with the altering if they are medium while manifesting it. Keeping the Speed part was more a keeping the feat simpler thing (keep the whole feat, instead of just 2/3 of it). Just allowing actual moves with it sounds good, and the greater increase with running is something I didn't even consider, great idea.

Imp Giant Reach . . . yeah, I wasn't even thinking of the possibility of using a reach weapon and threatening out to 3 squares. Definitely limit it. Most of the other effects was to try and make it more appealing to a non-melee class (a large-sized character screams melee already). Besides that, the other changes can be dropped.

 

[Rampant]

I think you've over thought this.

Heroic

Giant stride
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: Your base speed increases by +1.

Giant (insert weapon type) training
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: When wielding a (insert weapon type) you gain a +2 feat bonus to damage, this bonus increases to +3 at level 11, and to +4 at level 21.

Giant's Stature
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: Your carrying capacity increase to 15 time your strength score, and when an effect forces you to move (via pull, push, or slide) you may reduce that movement by 1.

Hurling master
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: The close and long range of any thrown weapon you wield increases by 4.

Paragon

Giant's fortitude
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: You gain a +3 feat bonus to your fortitude defense, this bonus increases to +4 at level 21. Additionally you may use your second wind an additional time each encounter.


Epic

Giant's reach
Requirement: Insert race name,
Benefit: Your reach increases to 2.