Ideas for a simpler D&D *mostly about skills*

[Grayhawk]

Since this thread in General grew to 5 pages in about 2 days, I guess I'm not the only one with an interest in this.

And since that thread was for discussing whether there was a need for a simpler game, this one is for putting up ideas for how to go about it.

Personally, what I'm looking for is a game that'll take me back to the less stringent 1e sessions all those years ago, where I felt the game was more open to creativity and spontaneity, while at the same time incorporate some of the things I like about 3x.

This simplified version (that I'm looking for) is not supposed to be a way to ease new players into D&D 3x and as such it doesn't need to be compatible with those rules.

I've read up on Castles & Crusades, and while it has some good ideas, I'd rather try to build this closer to 3x, by simplifying and cutting the existing rules.

Here's what I want to keep:

Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin (both spell less), Rogue, Cleric, Druid, Mage (who starts out as a Wizard?!?)

Races: Human, Half-elf, Elf, Dwarf, Hafling

BAB, the three saves, feats (a reduced number)

Skills: Much less (many consolidated), using something like UA's 'Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices'

Multiclassing: Max 2 classes per character (maybe 3 for half-elves)

Here's what I want to lose:

AoO's, a lot of the magic complexity, a lot of the combat complexity, the need for a battlemat and minis

The thread I linked to above already had some great ideas from RangerWickett, MoogleEmpMog, Ourph, Klaus and Remathilis, but maybe we can get into more detail here:

For instance, exactly how should the skills work? How about initiative? Should combat actions like Sunder, Trip and Disarm be allowed to everybody (using much simpler mechanics - maybe an opposed strenght roll) or should they only be allowed to those that take the feats? How do you simplify magic?

In the end, this may become more complex than what some expect of a simplified D&D (and that's fine - they can make their own thread ), but I really want to keep some level of complexity and choice, especially the feat mechanic.

Please share your ideas!

Edit: Edited the title to more accurately reflect on the threads' content

 

[Aaron2]

Here's my input (FWIW)

For instance, exactly how should the skills work?
Character picks a certain number of skills. Those skill get a bonus as level+mod. Similar to how BAB works. For example, a thief with a +1 int bonus will pick 9 skills.

How about initiative?
By the RAW but no delays or readied actions.

Should combat actions like Sunder, Trip and Disarm be allowed to everybody (using much simpler mechanics - maybe an opposed strenght roll) or should they only be allowed to those that take the feats?
I'd just make one mechanic (opposed attack rolls) and let the attacker choose the effect: sunder, trip or disarm. I'd most likely just ignore them, however.

How do you simplify magic?
Remove all effects of caster level on spell range and duration. Spells have fixed areas of effect an last one minute (or one combat), one hour, or one day. All spells take a standard action to cast. Spells like Feather Fall are cast and have a fixed duration (maybe all day) and expire when their effect is used.

BTW-I'd keep AoOs but remove reach.

FWIW-I think compatability with 3e should at least be considered.


Aaron

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Good job beginning this thread, Grayhawk.

Now, I realise that the reason for wanting a simplified D&D differs from person to person. YMMV, but nonetheless, my personal motivation for wanting such a system is basically twofold:

Firstly, I want to be able to run combats without using battlemaps. I often enjoy using battlemaps and I like the wargame-ish strategy of it, but I miss the option of running battles in a more free-form way; faster, more stream-lined and more open for the left-field strikes of player brillance.

Secondly, I think more rules equals more meta-game thinking. I want my players (and the DM) to "think out of the box."

So if anybody is able to create a coherent system that takes the above into account (and which hopefully isn't that incompatible with 3+), you've made my day!

My own suggestion will follow...

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Skills:

Very rudimentary and very broken, I'm sure.

Basically drop the formal skill system and make it freeform based on the abilities.

The basic classes has class skills as follows:

Fighter: STR
Wizard: INT
Cleric: WIS
Rogue: DEX

Dwarf: Bonus CON or WIS
Elf: Bonus INT or DEX
Halfling: Bonus DEX or CHA
Human: Bonus ANY ONE

If a player checks a class skill he adds his class level as a bonus. If it isn't he adds half his cross-class level (rounded down) as a bonus.

If a player has spend a lot of time as a fisherman, for example, you give the player a circumstance bonus if it's applicable.

1d20 + Ability modifier + Class level bonus + Cross-class level bonus + Circumstance modifier.

Examples:
STRENGTH-skill: Stamina, ability to do heavy, manual labor, speed, fatigue, swimming, jumping, busting doors, lifting heavy objects, bending bars and lifting gates

DEX-skill: Aim, hand-to-eye, manual acuity, pick pockets, lockpicking, juggling, fine manual labor, forgery, balance, stealth, climbing wals, acrobatics, charioteering, tight rope walking

CON-skill: Resistance to poison and disease, resistance to torture or long, grueling stays in prison, endurance, forced marching

INT-skill: Reasoning, riddlesolving, spellcraft, navigation, engineering, knowledge, language, literacy, religion

WIS-skill: Perception, willpower, intuition, tracking, searching, resistance to mind-effect magic, resistance to torture and interrogation, animal training, empathy, riding

CHA-skill: Leadership, power of personality, physical attractiveness, presence, morale, loyalty, disguise, etiquette

(EDIT: hmmm the above list includes stuff where "skill" isn't really that much of a factor. In those cases it should only be an ability check, of course)

 

[Grayhawk]

Aaron2 and Left-handed Hummingbird, thanks for your replies.

LhH, my approach to skills is somewhat similar, in the way that I want the check to end up as d20 + class level + ability modifier for those who know the skill.

But I still like the idea of choosing skills, so maybe something like this:

First, whittle down the number of skills to about half the current number by consolidating skills where possible.

Rough draft:

Craft (includes Profession) int
Sneak (Hide, Move Silently) dex
Alertness (Spot, Search, Listen) wis
Athletics (Climb, Swim, Jump) str
Acrobatics (Scale Walls, Tumble, Balance) dex
Persuade (Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff) cha
Ride, dex
Heal, wis
Survival, wis

Disable (Disable Device, Open Locks) dex or int
Decipher Script, int
Sleight of Hand, dex
Spellcraft, int
Track, wis
Knowledge, int (all 10 knowledge skills bought seperately)

You either know a skill or not. The first 9 are skills you may try to use without knowing them. Each class may only learn certain skills.

E.g. a Fighter chooses 2 skills + int modifier (+1 if human) upon character creation, from the following list: Craft, Athletics, Persuade, Ride, Survival. His rank in these skills are class level + ability modifier. An Alertness check for him will always jut be a wis check, a Sneak check always a dex check, etc.

The reason for keeping the 10 Knowledge skills individually, is that the Mage (with his propably high - and increasing - Int) soon will run out of skills to take otherwise. The Mage's list of possible skills will look something like this: Craft, Knowledge skills, Decipher Script, Spellcraft.

Possible weakness with this system:

A Rogue with Sneak as a chosen skill will not be much better at sneaking than someone else with the same Dex score for the first few levels. Even worse, the Cleric will propably be more alert than him for those levels as well. I guess, to remedy this, it is necessary to add in a +3 for known skills, much like in the RAW. While the system loses some of it's simplicity this way, it seems unavoidable.

As it is, this is pretty close to UA's 'Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices', but with fewer skills.

The classes should propably have the following number of skill points:

Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Mage, Druid(?): 2
Ranger: 4
Rogue: 6

Any glaring holes?

 

[Grayhawk]

Regarding spell casting in combat (and how to foil it).

With no AoO's, I'd say that some things - like spell casting - just aren't possible when in melee. But I'll propably make a feat - Combat Casting - that circumvents this rule, so we're back to finding a way to challenge spellcasters in combat.

How about initiative?
By the RAW but no delays or readied actions.

If there are no delayed actions, how do you thwart the pesky spellcasters?

The upcomming C&C (Castles & Crusades) game will revert to former editions' initiative system, where you call out your actions before rolling for initiative each round. This way, you have a chance of damaging a caster in the process of casting, and thus destroy his spell.

While I remember how those initiative rolls could hold a great deal of exitement (do you manage to get the final attack in before the BEG casts his Teleport?), I also like the cyclical initiative of 3e, where you only roll at the beginning of a combat and can base your action on what's happened right up to it.

But what to do about spellcasters? Increasing all casting times to full round actions (so everybody gets a chance of hitting them and disrupting the spell before it's cast), might be interesting and will require that the casters are much better protected by their party, but it'll propably reduce the power of spellcasters too much.

Any ideas?

 

[sinmissing]

If you are going to simplify the skill list so much, I suggest you drop INT bonus to Skill Points, and increase a mages skills per level.

 

[Grayhawk]

I have a new idea for handling skills

While it may not be as simple and elegant as I would've liked, it touches upon some general concerns I've had regarding skills by the RAW, specifically the fact that Profession isn't a class skill for everybody and that many classes have too few points to spend on knowledge skills.

And while I can see how a higher Int score would allow for more knowledge skills, I'm not sure it helps you learn how to climb or jump (if two persons with the same physical prowess trained various sports the same amount of time, I don't necessarily see the one with the higher IQ comming out as the winner.)

If you are going to simplify the skill list so much, I suggest you drop INT bonus to Skill Points, and increase a mages skills per level.

Good point (as the bonus from a high Int would otherwise become too potent, with the fewer consolidated skills), and I think I found a way of addressing that.

So here's the idea (in it's current state) :

Knowledge skills, Profession and Craft are not on the skill list. Instead all characters start with 1+Int bonus languages, 1+Int bonus Knowledge Skills and a Craft or Profession. Skill level = character level + ability modifier.

There are no skill points. You either know a skill or you don't (but all but the last 4 on the list can be tried untrained). If you know a skill, your Skill level is = class level + ability modifier. Skills known are chosen at character creation.

Skill list
Sneak (Hide, Move Silently) dex
Alertness (Spot, Search, Listen) wis
Athletics (Climb, Swim, Jump) str
Acrobatics (Scale Walls, Tumble, Balance) dex
Influence (Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff) cha
Handle Animal (Ride) wis?
Heal, wis
Survival, wis
Disable (Disable Device, Open Locks) int
Decipher Script, int
Sleight of Hand, dex
Spellcraft, int

All classes receive automatic Skill Focus feats (+3) in appropiate class skills but can choose to learn any skill on the list.

Here's the breakdown for 6 of the classes:

Fighter: Choose 2 skills
Has Focus in Athletics

Paladin: Choose 2 skills
Has Focus in Influence and Handle Animal

Ranger: Choose 4 skills
Has Focus in Athletics, Alertness, Sneak, Handle Animal, Heal and Survival

Cleric: Choose 2 skills
Has Focus in Influence and Heal

Mage: Choose 2 skills
Has Focus in Spellcraft and Decipher Script

Rogue: Choose 6 skills
Has Focus in Athletics, Alertness, Sneak, Acrobatics, Influence, Disable, Sleight of Hand and Decipher Script

Obviously, you're better off choosing skills from your Focus list, but if you want your Fighter to be alert for instance, you can make him so, without him being better at it than the Rogue or Ranger.


Example build:

Dwarf Fighter
Str 15
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 8

Since he has a +1 modifier on Int he chooses 2 languages - Dwarven & Common - and 2 Knowledge Skills - Local and Dungeoneering. He also chooses Profession (Miner).

Happy with his Athletics training (a +3 Focus from the Fighter class, for a total of +5 (+2 Str, +3 Focus)) he actually chooses to learn 2 other skills throughout his career, namely Disable for a total of +2 (+1 Int, +1 level) and Heal for a total of +2 (+1 Wis, +1 level).

At 5th level, his Athletics Skill level is still +5, but his Disable and Heal levels have increased to +6.


Whaddya think?

 

[Storyteller01]

You could always follow 'Spellslinger's example (From FFG's Horizon line...)

Nine classes, six of which only progress one level, and that level must be taken at first level. These are your spellcasters, and their spells progress via feats instead of levels (which you earn while taking levels in one of the three 20 level classes).

Skills are packaged together (Senses is Spot, Search, and Listen; Athletics is Jump, Climb, Swim; etc. ...)

 

[Dark Psion]

I've used the "Level-based" skill system from UA (You get all class skills at your level in ranks). One thing I really like about it is that it makes the skill bonuses count (Ability Mod, Racial Mod or feats)

If all 5th level Rogues have 5 ranks in their skills, the one with an 18 Strength is a very good climber & swimer and the one with an 18 Dexterity is obviously the best Rogue.

If you want to keep Profession, I would make it work like Occupations in D20 Modern.