Ideas for Creative Casting? Balanced Magic System?

[RangerWickett]

From what I've heard Chaos Magic is more complex than it needs to be. There's a lot of math involved per spell, and not everyone wants their characters turning into freaks. I still say go with Talislanta. I love Tal. It's what got me into gaming.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Change over to a manta based system (see Asgard mag) and let the players cast what they will if they have the points.

 

[The Kender]

I've yet to test this yet. Just do as the Psion does. It shouldn't be too hard to convert it over to arcane magic at all.

 

[Viking Bastard]

A good link:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2894/ps/psmage.html

 

[rootbeergnome]

what do ya think?

Ok, I have been working on the creative casting system a bit and Im going over a few ideas, I just wanted to get some feedback on this stuff. Here are some ideas I have so far:

--Probably take the wizard and sorcerer classes and make them the same class since memorization will no longer be necessary. However, I will still allow players to decide if their magic comes from their force of will (using Charisma modifier) or from their years of studying the way magic works (intellegence modifier). Clerics will still use Wisdom for their modifier.

--Going to have several arts/spheres/disciplines or whatever of types of magic. Examples might be the elements /fire/earth/air/water(pyromancy, geomancy, aeromancy, hydromancy), Mutation, Imbucation, Alter-Substance, Space(traveling, sending one of your sensory perceptions to a far off place, etc), Summoning, Animation, Positive(Light and Healing), Negative(Darkness, Entropy, Harm), Emotion/Mind, Illusion(but this may be light or darkness?). These are just some examples of possible categories. Casters will be limited to a certain number of these "Disciplines"

--Each spell must be described by the player of the caster and approved by the DM, complex spells should be discussed out of game so as not to slow down the game, however simple spells may be created "on the fly". If the group is especially patient, maybe even create complex spells "on the fly." Casters should not be able to create an effect unless they have the appropriate discipline.

--After the spell is described, the DM will asign a "spell level" to the spell, depending upon the availability of magic in the setting (if it were a low magic setting, then simple magic may be higher level than normal) a good reference would be to compare the created spell to spells in the player's handbook to get an idea of the spell level.

--Each caster has so many "spell slots" a day, but they may use them in any way they wish. Example: A 3rd level sorcerer normally may cast 5 first level spells(I will most likely reduce this number for this system) a day. This means he has 5 spell level slots a day. one (1) second level spell would be equal to two (2) spell slots. So if a caster had 5 first level spells and 2 second level spells they effectively have 9 spell level slots a day>see [(5*1)+(2*2)=9] I hope this is not too confusing, in the final version this will be unecessary because they will recieve these spell levels in a pool instead of in categories (i.e. instead of "2" 2nd level spells a day, they get 4 spell level slots)

--Ok, stay with me now, this really isnt as complicated as it sounds. In order to cast a spell the DM asigns the spell level that he thinks is appropriate, something similar to a fireball would be asigned "3rd level" and the casting of this spell would burn up 3 of the caster's "spell level slots(or points)" a day. O-level equivelent spells would be free as long as the caster had at least 1 point of spell slots left. Either free, or so many free casting a day of 0-level equivelent (similar to the psionics rules)

--I want this type of magic to be a little more difficult to use since it has the potential to be very powerful, so Ill have casters make a spellcraft check(modified by their key ability, Wis/Cha/Int) to cast a spell. The DC will depend upon the level of the spell of course. Something like DC 5 for 0-level equivelent spells, DC 10 or 15 for 1st level equivelent spells, DC 15 or 18 for 2nd level equivelent spells. I have not tested this, but I think assuming average rolls (a 10 on the D20 for spellcraft check) plus average spellcraft bonus, I will be able to figure this out. If the caster fails the check, then the spell level slots/points are expended and something bad happens depending upon the level of failure. Maybe the spell tries to work, but doesnt work as intended, or something worse. If the caster rolls a "1" then the DM should certainly be devious (after all, how else will they get into the Rat-Bastard Elite )

--I have to make rules for duration, range, damage, etc. I was thinking of having these based on the caster level. Also, if the caster beats the spellcraft DC they can maybe that means they have cast the spell even better than expected. Like say they roll an "18" against a DC 15 spellcraft check, they have beat it by 3 points, maybe they can spend them like each point can add "1" to the damaging effect of a spell, or each point can add "1" round to the spell's effect or something similar.
Example: Lets say Aramil, the Elven Wizard is in some trouble, and he needs to cast a spell quickly. Aramil has the Discipline "Air" which is associated with air, electricity, etc. He decides he wants to cast a lightning bolt at the mob of angry orcs that are coming down the hallway. The DM decides this is a 3rd level equivelent spell so it will cost 3 of Aramil's 7 spell points for the day. The DC for 3rd level spells is 20 (note, this is only for example, and may be higher when I actually run a game using this system) so Aramil must make a spellcraft check. He gets lucky and rolls a 19, adding his +5 in spellcraft, for a total of 24. He beats the DC by 4 and can cast the spell. He may opt to spend those 4 points(that he obtained by rolling a total 24, needing only a 20 on the spellcraft check) in order to make his spell more damaging. He looks adds 4 points of damage to the damage of the spell. Lets just say that damaging spells do 1d4 damage per spell level or something like that. So his lightning bolt slams into the orcs damaging them for 3d4+4 damage(save for half damage? or do you think it is already difficult enough to cast this spell?)

--Or maybe, instead on a failed check they take ability damage based on the spell's level.

I hope this gives everyone a fairly clear idea of the spell casting mechanic I am thinking of making. I still need to deal with things such as multiple targets, but this could be as simple as saying "Only spells of 3rd level or higher may affect multiple targets, DM has final say on how many" or could be like "You have beaten the DC by 6 points. You can use 3 of those points to add an additional target to your spell, the target can be no farther away than 5 feet per your caster level. This system would be ideal for me, because I like to encourage creativity, and I think magic should be something that is used in a creative fashion instead of:

Player:"I cast Magic Missile"
DM:"Ok, roll 1d4 and add "1" for each of your levels to that"
Player:*rolls* "I rolled a 3, plus 3 for my level, thats 6 damage"
DM:"Ok the orc drops, ok, now it's your turn bob."

So, thats about it for now, I look forward to reading your opinions and critisism on this system. Please feel free to offer any suggestions!
Thanks in advance,
-RB Gnome

 

[bloodymage]

WOW!

Sounds like a whole lotta work at the table and away from the table! Don't know about all these fancy magic systems. I'm a long-time D&D player and DM and long ago wondered why it was that fighters could fight all day, pilferers could filch all day but my spellcasters would sputter out after one heavy session and turn into useless baggage the rest of the day. Not fair, said I! I threw out spell slots for both my wizards (making sorcerers redundant) and clerics. My clerics have a failure chance based on a lot of things, including the fecklessness of their deity, and can basically attempt casting any spell their god will grant them all day long. My wizards operate on mana. I've copied the details here.

Wizards: Wizards are automatically literate in draconic, the language of magic. Mana: A wizard utilizes mana to cast spells. The amount of initial mana is equal to I + D modifier + 1d4. Mana increases every level the wizard gains a new level spell at the rate of 1d4 + I modifier. [A 1st level wizard has an I=17 and D=16 and rolls a 2 on a d4. Mana =21 (17 + 2 + 2). At 3rd level a 4 is rolled on a d4. Mana is now 28 (21 + 4 + 3).] It costs 1 mana/spell level + 1 mana to cast a spell (Fireball costs 4 mana.). Certain spells cost mana to maintain, usually 1/round When a wizard exceeds ½ his mana he loses 1 temporary point of CO with all adverse effects of such a loss. Exceeding ¾ mana causes the loss of another point. If a wizard hits 0 mana, he loses another point and he goes unconscious. If at any time during this progression the wizard loses enough hit points due to CO loss to drop his hit point level to 0 he loses consciousness immediately. If the hit point loss is great enough, the wizard will die. It takes 1 full rest cycle to recover mana, and consciousness. This applies to any mana recovery; it’s all or nothing. Temporary CO loss is recovered at the same rate as the loss. One point after ½ a “night,” another after ¾. Because of the use of mana, most spells no longer require a material component (exceptions: valuable components or components used in the actual crafting of the dweomer) for casting, though material components are required to research any new spell and some existing spells may be improved through research utilizing power components. A wizard may lose mana permanently if he fails a Fortitude Save when casting a spell which has an xp cost. Consequently, these spells no longer actually cost xp but do run the risk of permanently losing the mana expended on the spell. Spellbooks: Arcane spells are memorized from a spell book. Spell books are heavy, so are not normally carried with the wizard, though low-level wizards usually carry their first with them to keep it secure. Traveling spellbooks are also available. Wizards have a base 1d4 1st level spells in their spellbooks to start with. A d4 is added for every point of I bonus (our wizard started with 4d4 1st level spells in his spellbook). Additionally, wizards do not have all cantrips to start with. Roll 2d8 and add your I bonus. It takes time to inscribe a spell into a spell book and memorize it. A wizard may memorize only spells that he has inscribed. Reading spells: A spell may be read from a scroll, but is permanently lost. A spell may also be read from another’s spell book without being lost, but cannot be memorized until time is taken to inscribe the spell into the wizard’s own spell book. A spell read from a scroll costs no mana. A spell cast from a book costs the level of that spell + 1 in mana. A spell may be overcast when read (higher than what the wizard can use) with a 15%/level over chance of failure modified by I. [Our wizard has a 12% chance of failure overcasting by one level.] Beware, sometimes failures are catastrophic! Memorization: A wizard is capable of memorizing as many spell levels as he has mana to cast. [Our previous 3rd level wizard (with 28 mana) might memorize 4 cantrips (4 mana), 6 1st level spells (12 mana) and 4 2nd level spells (12 mana) from his spell book.] A spell needs only to be memorized once to be used multiple times. A wizard loses all spell memory upon reaching 0 mana. Acquisition: Wizards must acquire their spells. They do not automatically gain spells when increasing in level. They have to come from somewhere, treasure, mentoring, purchase, or…? Specialization: Wizards may specialize. It costs 1 less mana to cast spells from a specialty school and DC for that school increases by 2. A specialist is not proscribed from any other schools, however he still must choose proscribed schools per the rules in the PHB in order to apply a –2 to his DC for spells from those schools. Additionally, a specialist has a base 50% chance to forego the opportunity to inscribe any spells encountered from any other school in his spellbook increasing by 5% for every point of I bonus (representing the intelligent wizard’s greater focus in developing his specialty). There is even a 5% chance (same roll, 01-05) that the wizard will refuse to use the spell at all, discarding it, decreasing by 1% for every point of I bonus. If the scroll is not left behind, sold or given away (a successful roll), the specialist may use it normally even if he’s not inclined to inscribe it in his spellbook. A specialist may change his mind, as reflected in a new dice roll, about acquiring the same spell if it is encountered again. A specialist also has a base 50% chance of rejecting a charged item which is primarily magicked with spells from another school. However, an intelligent wizard has less of a chance of discarding such an item (the same 5% per). Specialties may also be developed from several schools. An Animator, for instance, might specialize in animating non-living things such as objects, undead, constructs, etc. Elven Wizards: Arcane spellcasters who are elves can pour the same sacrifice of life force (CO) into their spellcasting and in the same manner as elven druids (see above). A wizard who ignores the rest requirement suffers a permanent loss of 1 mana/day.

A couple of final notes. In order to encourage creativity and diversity in the magic of my world I encourage my spellcasters to research new spells, even new schools of magic. Consequently. I have 1 NPC wizard and 2 PC wizards who have completely unique and unknown portfolios of magic. Those experience in arcana who are on the receiving end of one of these spells are invariably surprised and perplexed. It's fun. The other note has to do with balance. I can hear all the purists out there screaming about game balance. Having played and DM'ed tons of wizards I gotta say there's no other class so vulnerable no matter how powerful they get. You get a swordswinger anywhere close to them and they're rotheburger! Stories are told of epic battles between mages. That's cause it's damned hard to kill a wizard with magic. Of course the battles are epic! Ever hear of an epic battle between a warrior and mage? Not likely. One of 'em's toast! More often than not, if the hulk is tough enough, it's the mage. End balance problem. Anyway, rbg, hope this helps.

 

[ùìéè äîáåê]

What edition of Ars Magica are you using?

It seems you are using the 3rd edition of Ars Magica as your inspiration. If you are, you may want to know that in its 4th edition the magic system got more complicated - but more predictable too. "Accurate" ways to assign DCs (i.e. spell levels) and range/duration/target are presented. Theoretiocally, you could use this system as-is, by simply changing the spell-guidelines section to fit a D&D like world, and using, say, skills (or some similar point-based mechanics) to represent knowledge of the Arts.

If you would like, I can send you the (almost) complete rules as a word document, by e-mail - including a few rules from some suppluments.

P.S - I have thought about it a bit. I think the ranges, durations and targets should also be changed to 3E stanard ones, the Arts should incorporate (indeed be based on) the Schools of Magic and d&d concepts (e.g. you could Evoke Negative-Energy) and so on. It's a lot of work, but it is duable. What you would still need is a way to allow to assign Art points, decide on hit-points, skills, saving throws - and you got yourself a class.

[EDIT: added ps ]

 

[rootbeergnome]

Re: WOW!

Sounds like a whole lotta work at the table and away from the table! Don't know about all these fancy magic systems. I'm a long-time D&D player and DM and long ago wondered why it was that fighters could fight all day, pilferers could filch all day but my spellcasters would sputter out after one heavy session and turn into useless baggage the rest of the day. Not fair, said I! I threw out spell slots for both my wizards (making sorcerers redundant) and clerics. My clerics have a failure chance based on a lot of things, including the fecklessness of their deity, and can basically attempt casting any spell their god will grant them all day long. My wizards operate on mana. I've copied the details here.

Thanks for all the suggestions. You have a pretty nice system worked out there! I am curious though, why does Dexterity modifier get added to mana? Or did I misread this? Also, I would very much like to hear how you deal with cleric castings in your game. You said they can cast any spell their diety will allow them, what system have you implemented in your game to balance this? I am very curious, as I would also like to allow spontaneous casting for clerics as well(and not just healing magic!) Thanks again everyone for all the great advice and examples.

--RB Gnome

 

[bloodymage]

Dex mod

The Dex modifier is only added in at 1st level to reflect an individual wizard's elegance in the somatic elements of his spellcasting. As to clerics, well...

Clerics: Clerics cast spells at the pleasure of their god. All spells are almost always available to them, including needs expressed on the spot. A cleric has no need of spell books, though records are kept in temples and monasteries, is not required to memorize spells, though many become familiar to them, and cannot actually overcast. All spells are at the pleasure (or whim) of their god. Clerics have a base 25% chance of spell failure +1%/spell level. Deities of good or evil alignments modify this by 5% either way. Law and chaos effect 10% modification. If the cleric’s alignment is not in strict accordance with his deity’s, a 5% penalty is incurred for each step of alignment difference. Chance is also modified by your W bonus. Finally, chance of failure is improved by 2%/clerical level [exception: casting a domain spell decreases chance of failure by 5%]. Welba, with 15 W, a 1st level LG cleric of a NG deity wants to cast a cure light wounds. She must roll higher than an 13 on d% to succeed. Casternia, the CN cleric (15 W) of a CN god requires above 32% to succeed! Remember, clerics have access to all clerical spells (they must at least know of the spell or simply ask a favor of their deity) and no limit on how often they supplicate to be granted one. 1% is always failure. There are usually no catastrophic failures, though a cleric with a capricious god may be in for a few surprises! Of course it works the other way, too. That same feckless deity may decide to turn in the cleric’s favor at the last possible moment and grant success! If a cleric supplicates to “overcast”, success is reduced, modified by W, by 10%/level of spell level over the caster’s ability. This difficulty, and any failure chance, may be overcome by increasing the amount of supplication (casting time) to the deity for a particular boon at the rate of 1%/round. There is always at least a 1% (100 on d%) chance of success with any clerical spell, unless the cleric is totally out of favor. Additionally neutral clerics can use either positive or negative energy and turn or command undead at any time during their adventuring career (they are neutral, after all) though they may have tendencies toward a certain behavior due to the nature of their deities.

Druids: Many druids start out of N alignment with at least tendencies (N w/G, N w/LG, etc.) striving always for true N which most achieve in the course of a long life. They cast spells as a cleric with no modifier due to deity alignment, but their chance of success increases by 3%/level. There is no druidic alphabet (the Celtic tradition was strictly oral). The only fire spell available to druids is the cantrip Spark, found in “Relics & Rituals” (enough to start a controlled burn, if needed). A druid’s fire spells instead use “vitality” as an energy source. Vitality is actually the life force surrounding the druid which he can draw upon. This is “positive” energy, the direct opposite of the negative energy of necromancers and undead. Elven Druids: Elven druids tend to be solitary in their vigilances only attending druids’ circles in time of great peril. Elven druids have an extraordinary capability in protecting their charge. They can weaken themselves to increase their power. One point of CO spent in powering their spell increases their effective casting level by 1 with no limit in a 24 hour period. That is why humans have historically been so afraid of Elven forests and the magic contained in them. Each point of CO loss is recovered in a linear progression once the druid rests from his labors in that 24 hour period. One point requires a tenday of total rest, 2 points require 2 tendays, etc. Additionally, the druid suffers a temporary loss of 1point of S for every point of CO used, recovered normally. If the druid attempts to postpone or ignore the required rest, his spell failure chance permanently increases by 3%/day and he suffers a temporary loss of 1 CO point and 1 S point. If he allows his CO to drain to 0, he dies. Obviously, this capability is not used often. If an elf decides to pour his total life force (his CO must be at full strength) into a casting the level increase is doubled. All elven druids know however, that this decision is irrevocable. Not even a wish or miracle will bring them back. Ilythiirians (drow) banished to the Underdark after the Crown Wars lost this ability.

I've posted this on another board, but if your interested, the complete (as of now) house rules for my FR campaign are at The Reliquary. Enjoy.

 

[rootbeergnome]

This sounds like a pretty cool system you have worked out. But I am curious about the balance issues it may bring up. How high of a level are clerics and mages allowed to "overcast"? Like, could a cleric attempt to cast really high level divine spells even at low levels? Also, if a cleric wanted to cast a spell really badly, could they just keep trying to cast it, if they werent in a battle or something, and eventually cast it? Im just curious, I really do like your creative system, it has given me a lot of ideas and If i get impatient with creating my own, I may use yours. Oh, and i tried to visit your web page, but it said that i was not a member and couldnt enter or something, maybe i went to the wrong link? Thanks again for actually reading this thread and helping me out.
--RB Gnome