If a DM can't cheat, can a player cheat?

[lord_banus]

If you catch him red-handed you should not be letting him re-roll. It should be an automatic fumble. That might prove a disincentive for him.
If he continues then make each of the fumbles progresively worse until everytime he does it, he has to make a new character.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Thank you Rodrigo...thats what I had meant to say.

BTW I have actually fudged rolls while playing that got my character more into trouble.

lol, Xazil, thats Brilliant!

In all truth, kudos. I go into some of my sessions just asking myself "how can I help my DM get us into even more trouble..."

 

[Lord Foul]

(At the same time, however, there's some people who play RPGs without any dice at all! Their games are pretty much improvised theatre. Usually the "deep-immersion" style gamers like this form of gaming.)

D&D is like theatre. The DM is the narator and the supporting cast while the players are the main characters.

The other players mostly don't see it because he's very sureptitious about it. I only notice coz I'm surveying the whole table. The other players know only because I've mentioned it and they didn't really seem to care. I mean, this guy's cheating is minimal . . . maybe once ever couple of sessions but it still irritates the Hell out of me! Also, when I suspect he's cheating but have no proof, he'll cry out his innocence! When I catch him red-handed, he'll just blush and re-roll.

Do the players really not care or are they just willing to overlook it for the sake of keeping the peace?

And about his crying innocence, how do you know for sure? Sounds like the boy who cried wolf to me.

 

[Ourph]

D&D is like theatre. The DM is the narator and the supporting cast while the players are the main characters.

D&D is a game, like Poker. If this were 150 years ago, dead and his players would be well within their rights to shoot the cheater and distribute his character's treasure amongst them.

 

[dead]

Do the players really not care or are they just willing to overlook it for the sake of keeping the peace?

A bit of both, I think.

And about his crying innocence, how do you know for sure? Sounds like the boy who cried wolf to me.

Yeah, maybe I do get a bit paranoid about it so I'm always suspecting the worst. I haven't caught him in a while but I still suspect he does it.

I was just wondering if it *really* matters and why it insults me so much.

 

[Talon5]

What are your thoughts?

If it bothers you then take away his ability to roll- tell him you don't trust his dice rolls anymore and you would rather know what his random rolls are.

If you don't care then make a point of saying- "dude you have a 10% of hitting this thing and you have hit 90% of the time, that is amazing!"

If it doesn't bother you then let it go.

Personally I use two d20 when I roll for to hit, thou I proclaim which one I am using and I roll to many 1s and misses to be cheating. (Went through an entire fight without rolling above a 10. GMed fight where better then half of the goons dropped their weapons- ya, I roll so badly some times it makes people laugh.)

 

[Lord Foul]

I was just wondering if it *really* matters and why it insults me so much.

The reason it might be insulting you so much is because you have put in time and effort to create a challenging but fair game. Then this player has some bad rolls and things don't look good so he changes some when he thinks no one can see. How would he feel if you changed some of NPC or monsters rolls to better thier situation?

That's why in all of the groups that I've played in it was always policy to roll in front of everybody. It's a game. Whatever happens, happens. If your character dies, so what. Roll up another one, walk around the corner, find the cell with the captive, and guess what, the party has just rescued your new character.

If he is that attached to his character I suggest that he don't play Call of Cthulhu.

 

[reiella]

I just want to chime in here.

Not only is he cheating himself by altering the results in his benefit. He's cheating the rest of the party as well. He's artificially inflating his "importance" to the adventure and thus lowering everyone elses. He also makes the encounters, in general, less of a challenge for everyone else.

Then there's also the Power Escalation Issue. The DM may have to start throwing tougher encounters at the party because of the cheating player (in order for everyone to be challenged), however this results in the problem of the cheating player feeling it necessary to cheat in order to have a viable chance to succeed, while the rest of the party has to face harsher encounters that they are not as well fit to handle because they do not cheat.

 

[Trainz]

No player of mine ever did this. They like the game too much.

If one of my players did that, I would adjust the situation very obviously: once in a while, if he rolled honestly and hit, I would say "You miss" to which he would reply "What do you mean ? I hit last round with a much lower die roll" to which I would bluntly state: "You miss" and do it over and over again until he caught on and ceased.

There is NO WAY I could ever even allow one such cheating. If as a DM I feel you should absolutely have succeeded but failed (for any reason be it TPK, plot advancement or whatever), *I* will take care of it. It is not my player's prerogative to randomly bend the rules as they see fit.

 

[Imagicka]

Greetings...

I have a player who occasionally fudges a dice roll. I've caught him in the act on occasion and have scolded him for it... ...is he *really* cheating?

I mean, if he chooses to fudge die rolls on the sly, isn't that his perogitive? Isn't he the one who's responsible if the act of fudging die rolls ruins his gaming experience (it obviously isn't coz he continues to do it!)?

Well, it doesn't seem to bother you too much. So, if it isn't too much of a problem in-game, or outside of game...such as the other players also notice it and have complained about it behind this player's back. Then, I would take the attitude that you've taken. Why make problems for yourself?

If it was a problem in-game...cheats often and does things like add an extra 4 or 5 to his favour, and not the occational 1. Or that the other players catch this and complain...well, yeah. Then you have a problem and should move towards resolving it.

But some players are just pathelogical cheaters. I've seen it dozens of times, and early on in my GMing career, I would point it out, "Oh, no...that save is 17, not 18 with your bonuses...you missed it by one." -- The player would give you a half-dumb-half-dirty look. Now, I don't even bother when they do the occational tweek here or there, when they are 'on the cusp'... especially when they are in a situation where I would have fudged the dice myself.

Hell, sometimes I promote 'cheating' in little ways. When players are rolling their hit dice for a new level, and they roll a one. I will say "Hey! What's that!?" and point to behind the player, grab their dice and roll it again. Of course they don't mind.

You see, I was thinking of taking off XP next time I caught him in the act but I thought that might just emphasise a *DM versus Player* mentality (ie. the old *DM is your enemy* [munchkin] mentality).
What are your thoughts?

I would, if you are bothered by his actions, start punishing him in sly little in-game ways that he probably won't even pick up on. The monsters tend to attack him first. Thieves steal a magical item from his room in the inn at night... which of course leads to a new campaign... but ultimately, the item is not recovered. If his little cheating actions bother you a little bit...then little digs at him to make you feel better are acceptable. Appropriate Measured Responses.

But like you said...we are all there to just have fun. Some GMs are hardnoses and get off a little too much on their own powertrip. If the players aren't having fun, then they are doing something wrong.

Some players are mature enough not to cheat. Some enjoy the occational failure and see it as fun and challenging. Some feel that the DM makes things a little too hard so they need to cheat. Or they don't know why they cheat. Question is...why do they cheat, and how can you give them a reason not to cheat.

The true trick is to give the players a game that they all enjoy. That the challenges are not too hard to be frustrating, and not too easy to be...well...challenging. That you balance what the players want and expect from a game for them to have fun and enjoy it. In the end if you do things right, then maybe this person won't cheat.