If a DM can't cheat, can a player cheat?

[J-Buzz]

The DM's I play with, have all the players fill out cards with our stats on them. That way they know what our Attack Bonuses are, then we roll in view of everyone.

However, it still happens, but I would not call it cheating. On occasion, your brain farts and you add the numbers wrong, or forget some bonus/penlty and give the wrong to hit number.

Also uses it so he/dm can roll our spots and stuff, so instead of saying "Everyone make a spot check", and no one makes it but everyone is like, "ah, I will search"

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Heh, as DM I have been asked to stop rolling my dice out in the open where everyone can see them. They want me to be able to fudge the die rolls. When I roll them in the open bad things tend to happen to the PCs...

And yes, the player if he is in fact changing his rolls, is in fact cheating.

Oddly I have found that Action Points can help prvent cheating - if the player feels that it is a crucial roll then he can do something about it other than cheat.

The Auld Grump

 

[d4]

One problem - some games as has been pointed out have class abilities or mechanics that "simulate" cheating - the Luck Clerical domain, for example. This shafts anyone who actually has that ability, and paid for it with their own choices. If Player B is going to cheat like mad, then I'm better off cheating like mad too, and picking up something useful like the Strength or Destruction domain; or better yet, why not pick up five or six other cleric domains, while I'm at it?

well, it's a matter of degree. if he's cheating so much it's negatively impacting you, then yes, it's a problem.

if he's cheating so often that he never fails a single attack or skill check and always does maximum damage, that's a problem too.

if he on some occasions fudges a save by 1 or 2 points to keep a character he likes playing alive, or fudges an attack by 1 or 2 points to down a monster who is about to coup de grace a fellow party member, then i don't really have much of a problem with it.

like i said, if it makes the game more fun for him and doesn't negatively impact others, then i don't mind.

 

[d4]

Oddly I have found that Action Points can help prvent cheating - if the player feels that it is a crucial roll then he can do something about it other than cheat.

i totally agree. one of my main problems with core D&D is that it has no way to mitigate bad luck. that's why i like d20 Modern's Action Points and other similar mechanics.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

I once had a DM that designated a "Luck Modifier"... I don't remember how you came up with the number... Cha based, maybe... but, anyway...

If you were doing something that could, by the DM, be considered based on "Luck"--you got to add in your "Luck Modifier"...

A dim highlight to an otherwise horrid DM... hardly believe I remember that little mechanic... but, I digress...

Good thread!

 

[diaglo]

Oddly I have found that Action Points can help prvent cheating - if the player feels that it is a crucial roll then he can do something about it other than cheat.

oddly i find players who are gonna cheat on rolls are gonna cheat on other things too. like keeping track of how many action/hero points they have left or used.

when you don't play on a regular basis it is even more of a downer. when you know last session Player Cheat used up all his Action/Hero points and this session he has 3 more.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I would (like many others it seems... great minds and all ) not use the sly "reciprocation technique". I've got a player in my group who pretty much fudges most of the time I'm not watching like a hawk and I've discovered that trying to punish his character in-game with monsters attacking him first etc. that it leads to even-more cheating. Basically the player fudges even more to advoid the constant attacks, increases saves to advoid the pit trap that they've tripped, bumps up the result of their Diplomacy check, recalculates skill points between sessions etc.

I've been considering trying the "Players roll all the dice" varient rule from UA to combat this. By pushing the dice rolls onto the players it might free me up to concentrate on role-playing and story more, and makes it easier to monitor the cheating as generally a lot of attention is on the dice when they're rolled.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I have similar problems with a particular cheating player, but the fact that she's the hot asian girl throws an added complexity into the mix -- it's against my nature to allow a girl to cry, let alone be the one that makes them cry!​

My idea is to offer her an alternative:​

"You cheat. We know it. We've seen it. We don't like it. Part of the fun for the rest of us is this element of the unexpected, and you're taking that away from the group. So you've got a few options. You can not play, or you can not cheat. If you are too affraid of rolling a '1' to play fair, we can just assume all d20 rolls for you come out at 10. You don't get to be the psion who makes more Reflex saves than the Monk. That pissess off the monk."​

And then go feel bad for a day because I made the hot asian girl cry. ​

 

[Anthraxus]

DM-wise, I don't mind if there is a rare bit of dice fudging.

Player-wise, I don't like it at all.

One time when I was a player, we had another player who was new to the group, first game with us. He had a 1st level Rogue, and I had a 3rd level battle-focussed Cleric. For SOME reason, he kept hitting the BBEG, who had a 20+AC. Due to some bad rolls, I just couldn't seem to hit the bad guy, but this Rogue could. Alot. Also, he sat on the couch, just a little too far for most people to see the results of his die rolls. And for some reason, his rolls seemed to fall behind his dice box, where the DM's vision was obscured.(Due to Cover? )

Maybe he was just REALLY, REALLY lucky, but he was not invited back.

-A

 

[ruleslawyer]

Player cheating: I'm with kamikaze Midget and Henry on this one. Players pay for the ability to make attack rolls that connect more often, avoid enemies' attacks, and make saves more often. If you just cheat your way through those rolls, you're devaluing the price paid by your fellow players, which not only wrecks suspension of disbelief, but also engenders bad feeling on fellow players' part and makes for worse gaming.

DM "cheating": Also with Henry here. IMHO, a DM cannot cheat. It's actually impossible, for the simple reason that DMs have the absolute power of encounter and adventure design. As a result, DMs don't have to make design tradeoffs or make their NPCs "balanced" with players' PCs. Doing so is generally good game design, just like sticking somewhat to the rolls is generally good gameplay. However, it just isn't "cheating" to fudge die rolls. Making a 17 out of a 12 is just like giving the NPC a free item that awards a +5 luck bonus to the roll in question, something that the DM was in no way restricted from doing by the "rules." I refuse to roll dice in full view of my players (and I had one obnoxious player who tried to insist on it, until two of his fellow players died after I rolled eight consecutive 18-20s on two rounds of full attacking by a raging dragon; the other players made me keep my dice behind the screen after that). Sometimes, it can be poor gameplay to have your BBEG die after rolling three consecutive 1s or 2s on saves, or to kill your party by inadvertently rolling as I did in the aforementioned dragon encounter. That's why DM fudging is kinda important and sometimes even necessary rather than invidious.