If a DM can't cheat, can a player cheat?

[Bayushi Seikuro]

Cheating...

Back home in Michigan, we had a guy who would always kind of fudge rolls. We were playing Rolemaster, so my other friend - the GM - just started subtracting 200 from the roll, figuring that was about the average amount he was overestimating the roll.

Here in my current group, our most unreliable player - who is a friend - cheats. He has dark dice - maybe he reeeeally can't read them - but I've seen a seven become a nineteen. On the 'idiot dice' d10s - yknow, the tens-die kind - he counts 00 as a ten... and he counts a 10 on the die as a ten, as opposed to a one.

No good solution. I know it irks the crap out of me too, but... he's kind of fallen out of favor with the group anyway for that and other reasons, so... maybe it's become self-correcting.

 

[Ranes]

...That's why DM fudging is kinda important and sometimes even necessary rather than invidious.

Absolutely. I tried writing a post to address this earlier but gave up. The reason why my group currently strives to play by the dice, as it were, is because we want to experience the satisfaction that we expect to come from developing high level characters by that process. Either that or we find character mortality amusing. Oh, maybe both.

That doesn't mean we think GM-fudging is cheating. As you said, the DM cannot cheat. The DM should do what's right for his game. In my group that means, "Read 'em and weep."

 

[Talon5]

Amazing but true

A looonnngggg time ago we were playing Mercanary, Spies and Private Eyes (I said a long time ago ), rolls were made with 2d6, with basic target numbers, any pairs could be rolled and added to the next dice- so a pair of 5s was a ten, add 2d6, a pair of 3s made that 16 and so on.

In the middle of a dinning room table in front of everyone one player got up into the 40s. It was amzing to watch, he did not cheat at this as we could all see his dice. We laughed about it for a long time.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Once again I will disagree with those who say a GM cannot cheat. Maybe I would accept that if they said a good GM cannot cheat. A GM who fudges roll to make the game more fun or to prevent an unlucky roll from taking out half the party is not cheating. A GM with a pet NPC who is always better than the PCs because the rolls are fudged is cheating as much as any player.

 

[Henry]

A GM with a pet NPC who is always better than the PCs because the rolls are fudged is cheating as much as any player.

Ah, but I would say that a GM who is doing that, at that point, IS a player, and a cheating one at that, because their NPC is getting the same treatment as a PC.

OTOH, some GM's accept that some NPC's are allowed to be walking plot devices, a la Elminster. I had a "walking plot device" or two in my homebrew games years ago, but unlike the PC's, they didn't go on adventures. One time, my Elminster-clone was the SUBJECT of an adventure - the PCs had to rescue him, LONG before anyone had ever heard of an "Elminster in Hell" plot (His soul had been trapped in Ravenloft by Vecna).

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Ah, but I would say that a GM who is doing that, at that point, IS a player, and a cheating one at that, because their NPC is getting the same treatment as a PC.

OK, I accept that in that case he is a player, and I understand that sometimes NPCs are plot devices and have to be kept alive, but what about the DM who spent days crafting the perfect BBEG. He is sure that it will be a huge challenge and will likely kill off a PC or two, but because the PCs use excellent tactics and work together well, the BBEG doesn't stand a chance. Annoyed at being outsmarted, the DM suddenly changes the BBEG or even worse, the rules, and kills off a PC in vengeance. I'm not talking about a climactic battle that becomes a one round fight becasue of some lucky rolls, but a challenging battle where the players did something highly creative. I know personally I would love this and laud the PCs up and down, but I've known GMs who would be ticked off that they were able to beat the BBEG just by being smarter than the GM. Is it cheating, or just bad GMing? I feel that it is cheating AND bad GMing.

 

[Henry]

...and THAT's why I don't put days of thought into my BBEG's.

Seriously, a DM who depends on players to behave a certain way will have similar problems, and this falls into the heading of the DM's knowing when to distance themselves from the situation a bit. It's quite common with first-time DM's, who through rules inexperience bend the rules to ensure that a desired outcome happens. NO session survives first contact with the players, the same way no battle plan survives first contact with your enemy.

(Before anyone gets riled, I'm not calling players "enemies". I'm saying that your session is designed to be a challenge and an entertainment to the players, and they will do some unexpected to your "challenging" plans from time to time.)

It takes a good DM to know when his players had fun accomplishing something, and when something is too easy or "boring." (Incidentally, if you ever play ENWorld's Neverwinter Nights server, NEVER tell Russ that you're "bored." Ever. )

 

[Ghostknight]

OK, I accept that in that case he is a player, and I understand that sometimes NPCs are plot devices and have to be kept alive, but what about the DM who spent days crafting the perfect BBEG. He is sure that it will be a huge challenge and will likely kill off a PC or two, but because the PCs use excellent tactics and work together well, the BBEG doesn't stand a chance. Annoyed at being outsmarted, the DM suddenly changes the BBEG or even worse, the rules, and kills off a PC in vengeance. I'm not talking about a climactic battle that becomes a one round fight becasue of some lucky rolls, but a challenging battle where the players did something highly creative. I know personally I would love this and laud the PCs up and down, but I've known GMs who would be ticked off that they were able to beat the BBEG just by being smarter than the GM. Is it cheating, or just bad GMing? I feel that it is cheating AND bad GMing.

That is just bad DMing- creativity from players is expected by me and REWARDED. Yep, so they trashed the BBEG faster than expected (or once even had a climatic final scene neutralised by PC actions - and I had so wanted to see their reaction!) But that be the game.

But the dice to me are tools that I amfree to pverrule at my whim (all my rolls are secret- I doubt characters want to know what my ACTUAL rolls are- far more freedom from worry for them.) One way OI control PCs is to have copies of character sheets. All rolls they don;t know about, I make in secret (of course that leads to some sweating when I start rolling dice and they don't know why. Which of course means I occasionally just roll dice to make them sweat!)

 

[Thotas]

"Have his opponents run up to him and just die on the his first swing, whether he hits or not. Have him find fabolous treasure and wonderful magic items. Women fall in love with him at the slightest flirtation. Kings sing his praises and enemies simply give up when they know he is coming or recognize him. In short, take away his ability to cheat but taking the fun out of it for him."

That's advice reminiscent of Ushiba Morehai (founder of aikido) and an old episode of the Twilight Zone. How can anyone argue with that?

Okay, I'll read the rest of the thread now ...

 

[Parlan]

I have similar problems with a particular cheating player, but the fact that she's the hot asian girl throws an added complexity into the mix -- it's against my nature to allow a girl to cry, let alone be the one that makes them cry!​

And then go feel bad for a day because I made the hot asian girl cry. ​

Hey, I like playing with hot girls (Asian or otherwise) as much as the next guy (or I imagine that I would, none ever seem to join my groups ), but there's a little thing called sex-equity. If she wants to be treated as a member of the group, then she needs to play by the rules of the group. She shouldn't WANT to be treated differently, IMHO.

Of course, gender theory aside, it's hard to feel cool when a girl is crying in front of you! I hope it works out for both of your sakes, K-M