If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Furn_Darkside]

As for tactics, there are a lot I've used. But I see no difference between casting Sleep and wiping out the fighters, then casting Blindness on a wizard, cleric, or whatever spellcaster.

The difference is neither of those kills the target after 1 failed save.

They may be vulnerable, but that is what the rest of the group is for- they can wake or possibly cure the person who is affected.

On the other hand- iirc, all the spells that bring characters back to life take a long time to cast. That is not quite an option in a major battle.

I also don't think the idea of beginning a fight with a save vs. die against the melee- so the melee can sit out of the whole fight is a fun idea.

FD

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Everyone keeps talking about dragons, super baddies, etc. falling to the harm/ready combo. Where are all the minions? Where are the magical protections? What are the super-baddies doing when the PC's are blithely destroying them? Dragons are, or should be, smarter than anything other than gods.

That INT seems to fail these smart villians when it comes to the heroes, I guess. It must be some kind of allergy to pc's.

FD

 

[Xarlen]

Well, people seem to rally against Death Ward too, because it comes along with Death spells... As well as bring back the dead spells... Though I personally don't like them, either.

I've played a little too long with the Kid gloves.

 

[Xarlen]

I equally have to question what the Other dragons were doing while you were steadily trying to Disintegrate 1 of them. Are you saying not once they tried to pounce the spellcasters? Or why did they let you rest, at all?

 

[shadracht]

Here's a good breaker for pesky parties annoying dragons: Geas/quest. Allows no save, has a range, and unless the recipient works to finish the geas, will eventually kill them. The sicken aspect of the spell denies even magical healing to the recipient.

Not to mention contingency, which is within the spell casting ability of even the least magically able dragons of great wurm status. (the whites)

If you use the big-bad as a straw-filled dummy, and do not use all of the abilities at their disposal, then you have greater problems in the campaign than harm.

 

[Xarlen]

Especially Contingency+Heal.

Or, Chain Contingency+Raise Dead+Heal.

If you're mean... Contingency+Geas: Cast on the one who kills me. He must find a way, and have me returned to life.

 

[Orco42]

I'm with you Tom!

Harm become balanced when you have a Hierophant that can cast it at a range of 30'.

 

[loviatarfrostbringer]

I like the idea of Harm getting a Will save (Partial) for 6d8 + lvl (max 20). But I would say that it cannot kill the target, just drop him to positive 1d4 as if he failed the save. If the cleric tagged the target witht Harm and that target only had 7 or so hps left then the cleric deserves to have wasted the spell.

Thanks to whoever brought up the fact (Heavy G, I think) that a good cleric cannot sack a 6th level spell for healing/"Heal". I didn't read that part, and I figure a lot of others didn't either...or they just assumed like me that there was a cure spell of each level. That'll make my cleric a wee bit more cautious in his spell selection/memorization.

 

[Al]

Xarlen: I am genuinely confused about your point. Are you defending Harm, or save-or-dies in general? If the former, I disagree. If the latter, that's fine. It's the no-save-and-die part of Harm that bugs me.

IMC, harm stays as written until I am convinced, through play, that it is broken. I think that people who have house-ruled it without experiencing it firsthand are being a bunch of Chicken Littles.

Well, firstly I'd point out that this is flawed logic. If a spell is clearly overpowered (which, to my mind, Harm is) then playtesting it is a waste of time. However, in my case, I did run a campaign with a non-save version of Harm. The party cleric loaded virtually all his higher level slots and any combat turned into a Harm-fest.

As for this:

Especially Contingency+Heal.

.

I haven't encountered many 18th level wizard/11th level clerics in a long time.

Anubis: I agree, but I feel you are being too meek. A save for half still makes this potentially incredibly powerful: hitting a 600hp dragon can knock off 300hp with a save. I think that saving for a set amount of damage is reasonable- and in line with other save-or-dies.

LuciusFoxhound: If I were the wizard I'd rather go up against Phantasmal Killer. The cleric can quite often cover the ground quickly, and smack you followed up with a Quickened Inflict Wounds. The only place you're going in the afterlife.

And offhand comments like SR to balance spells is clearly nonsense. By that token, any spell devised could be balanced (with a few very rare exceptions). Firstly, many opponents do not have SR: especially humanoids (yes, they can cast it, but it's easily dispelled). Secondly, SR is a trump card against any spell. Spells have to be compared with other spells of equivalent level, not against SR: otherwise, Power Word: Kill would be balanced with Ray of Frost (both are subject to SR.)

shadracht: Your comments are similar. You talk of magical defenses and such like. But the fact is that magical defenses can trump any spell so it's futile to bring them in. Death Ward can make Power Word: Kill or Wail of the Banshee *less* effective than Ray of Frost. Befuddling the issue with defenses is not constructive.

As for geas, well, yes, the dragon could impose one. And then you could kill the dragon and, the next day, he has to make a Fort save or be sickened. By which time you are dead. The only immediate effect is that oh-so-painful 3d6 damage.

 

[Anubis]

When resting, we left the cave to rest. The cave was under a huge metropolis that had all kinds of varied races, and most of the dragons within did not like each other. Add to that the fact that the cave was MILES wide, they didn't know when their neighbors were being attacked anyway.

The dragons on lower levels weren't interested in the outside world, and we did this in three days. They used their big tactivs and crap, and it didn't work because we usually won initiative and killed it right off.

Besides, you can't base a spells balance on the tactics of the person it's being used on!