If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Xarlen]

I simply question this:

For those who are making Harm a save for 6d8+Class level.

You compare this with Inflict spells, but Harm is Not an inflict spell.

Let's compare:

5th level Slay living: Touch, Die or take 3d6+spell level.

6th level Harm: Touch Save or take 6d8+Class level of damage.

7th level Destruction: Ranged Touch Attack. Death or 10d6.

How do you go from doing 6d8+class to Death or potential of 60 damage? Alteast with Slay living you Die when you fail the save. However, with Harm, if you fail the save, the Most they can do is 68 points of damage, at 20th level.

How is that balanced?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

As someone who plays in Epic Levels, I can say that this is absolutely NOT the case. At higher levels, there are simply way too many ways to protect against instant-death and raise saves for instant-death spells to be effective. Damaging spells with Metamagic Feats do MUCH more.



As for wizards not being able to take hits . . . What kind of players do you have? My wizards almost always have over 100 by level 15, and over 200 by Epic Levels, because their first item selection is things that boost Constitution and hit points, along with Toughness feats. My wizards easily have at least as many hit points as clerics.

Well as someone who plays at high levels but not epic levels I can say this is the case. Protections are nice but they rarely cover close to the full spectrum, and protections even if they did cover the full spectrum are the reason why almost every fight starts with a volley of dispels. I've seen way too many DCs reach the absurdity level on save or dies. Me I see the problem not in the save or dies but the way too many DC boosters.

Oh and side point if we want to continue the save or die vs damage dealing discussion maybe we should amke another thread and stop hijacking this one, I'm starting to feel guilty.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I simply question this:

For those who are making Harm a save for 6d8+Class level.

You compare this with Inflict spells, but Harm is Not an inflict spell. Let's compare it with Slay living. Touch spell, Save or die.

7th level Destruction, Ranged Touch Attack. Death or 10d6.

How do you go from doing 6d8+class to Death or potential of 60 damage? Alteast with Slay living you Die when you fail the save. However, with Harm, if you fail the save, the Most they can do is 68 points of damage, at 20th level.

How is that balanced?

which is why I don't add a save I make it 9th level.

 

[Al]

I simply question this:

For those who are making Harm a save for 6d8+Class level.

You compare this with Inflict spells, but Harm is Not an inflict spell.

Let's compare:

5th level Slay living: Touch, Die or take 3d6+spell level.

6th level Harm: Touch Save or take 6d8+Class level of damage.

7th level Destruction: Ranged Touch Attack. Death or 10d6.

How do you go from doing 6d8+class to Death or potential of 60 damage? Alteast with Slay living you Die when you fail the save. However, with Harm, if you fail the save, the Most they can do is 68 points of damage, at 20th level.

How is that balanced?

Simple answer:

Assume Harm is a save-or-die spell (which, for all intents and purposes, it would be if a save was added).

Slay Living (5th): Touch, die on failed save; 3d6+level damage on save.
Harm (6th): Touch, effectively die on failed save; 6d8+level damage on save.
Destruction (7th): Die on failed save; 10d6 damage on save.

Now let's see...10d6>6d8+level>3d6+level.
7th level>6th level>5th level.

Sounds balanced to me.

 

[Xarlen]

I don't know. That makes Harm just a Slay Living with more damage. Infact only makes Destructive more attractive because it's a Ranged Touch.

I say, if you're going to tamper with it, give it a Will for Half, or give it a damage cap.

I really liked the 10/Level cap that someone proposed.

 

[mirivor]

I haven't read all 124 responses to this so I apologize if what I have to say has already been said.

Something that nobody seems to mention when it comes to Harm is this simple fact: Harm cannot kill anything. That tidbit is not to be negligently tossed aside. You have a higher level spell that, while awesome versus one large opponent, is impotent against the majority of the monstrous manual creatures.

"What? I see the lone remaining goblin? I only have one spell left, but it IS 6th level. I cast my Harm on the poor bugger and ... DOH!"

Just my opinion, but filling a 6th level slot with a spell that one will only use against possibly 20% of the standard D&D creatures is actually a gamble. Now, I am not saying that Harm is worthless... far from it... but one has to take ALL aspects of a spell into account before declaring it to be broken. Nearly every offensive spell in the game can kill. Magic missile, Inflict wounds, Fireball, etc. all have the capability to slay a creature. Harm does not. Just something to toss around in your brains. Later!

 

[Xarlen]

Allow me to put this so others don't pounce on you.

Harm+Quickened Inflict.
Harm+Haste (And thus a dagger attack, or another damage spell).

That seems to be the consensus.

 

[mirivor]

I agree with the combos, but I can name a hundred others that do not involve Harm yet kill just as quickly. I myself would consider altering Harm if I DM'ed, however my previous post still stands. Harm can NEVER kill anything. That is not small potatoes. Against the lowliest ooze or the most terrible dragon, Harm is incapable of killing something.

What about the Smiting weapon type? A crit on a construct and its lights out with no save, regardless. How about vorpal? Anyone toss that out or grant a saving throw? What about the various Power Words? Forcecage? Imprisonment? Are all of these to be altered then? All of these are just as effective as Harm, not to mention that they have a range greater than touch.

 

[Xarlen]

Well, again, most have pointed out that Harm offers no resistance. One touch, BOOP, now the guy next on the initiative chain can shoot you dead.

The only defense it's offered is the fact of SR. Since it's a Touch attack, rare that it's NOT going to hit.

Hey, I'm for leaving Harm alone, or to not neuter it. But, I would suggest reading the thread before making arguements that's allready been made a hundred times, and rabble roused over.

 

[bret]

Now let's see...10d6>6d8+level>3d6+level.
7th level>6th level>5th level.

Sounds balanced to me.

Doesn't to me.

Average damages are:
35, 27 + level (min 11), 18 + level (minimum 9)

Even at minimum level, if you give Harm 6d8 + level on a failed roll it will do more than 10d6 will usually do.