If not magic items, then what?

[Alratan]

At high level, when PCs are basically demi-gods, then I'd say the only way to stop PCs have significant wealth available is by meta-gaming or running very limited plots.

If you can kill an army by yourself, who can really stop you from becoming exceedingly rich if you want.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Magic items will still be a reward, they just won't be essential to be competitive within the CR system. I guess they'll no longer affect the key numbers - armor class, to hit, damage, hit points and saves - but will provide other bennies instead.

If that is the policy for the core magic items, WotC needs to really hold the line on the supplements that follow. If there are no core items that boost saving throws, but saving throws remain important, you can bet that players will WANT an item that boosts saving throws.

 

[Sitara]

At high level, when PCs are basically demi-gods, then I'd say the only way to stop PCs have significant wealth available is by meta-gaming or running very limited plots.

If you can kill an army by yourself, who can really stop you from becoming exceedingly rich if you want.

Yes but that is an artifical illusion. I really don't understand why people don't get this.

If a pc is level 30 and decked out with amgic items, the gm can introduce 10 NPC's who are also level 30, and have triple the magic items the pc has.

So basically the gm can easily control everything he wants in game, including player wealth.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Yes but that is an artifical illusion. I really don't understand why people don't get this.

If a pc is level 30 and decked out with amgic items, the gm can introduce 10 NPC's who are also level 30, and have triple the magic items the pc has.

So basically the gm can easily control everything he wants in game, including player wealth.

Then when the players kill the NPCs they have 4 times the amount of stuff they used to have.

Or all the PCs end up dead.

It's a slippery slope not an illusion. Once you start down that path it is very hard to turn back.

 

[Tharkun]

I imagine that a good selection of magic items will be replaced by similar class abilities.

 

[SlagMortar]

This is an interesting idea I hadn't really considered before. However, if you're doing that, how would you avoid replacing your "Christmas tree" of worn magic items with "Santa's bag" of niche folding boats, portable holes, and crystal balls? Is that not a problem?

I think a "Santa's bag" of niche items is a much smaller problem than the dependence on magic items from 3.0/3.5. A 15th level fighter with a bag full of interesting items like folding boats has about the same combat power as a 15th level fighter without the bag full of items. If a DM wants to run a low magic item campaign, then the combat challenges the fighter can take on are about the same whether the fighter has the bag of items or not. If the DM gave the fighter a folding boat and then wants to make the fighter navigate an underwater river in the middle of the dungeon, the fighter might actually still have the folding boat instead of having already sold it to add another +1 to his sword.

 

[eve_of_dante]

just spotted this in Races and Classes:

Heroic Tier: 'at this tier you can count on finding +1 longswords, +1 suits of armour and shields... in a larger town or city a skilled smith is capable of forging such goods if you have enough money to afford them. For mightier goods, you must venture into the largest cities in the world.'

So there is magic armour around...
This doesn't seem to differ too much from 3rd ed., where the Magic Item Compendium gives +1 weapons at 6th level, +1 armour at 4th and +2 armour at 8th level. So magic armour acquisition seems to happen at slightly higher levels than 3rd ed., but not significantly so.

EDIT: Though if smiths can forge this stuff perhaps it's not actually magical? Nothing in the Fighter section seemed to suggest that armour was necessarily magical...

 

[Li Shenron]

One thing that's bothered me has been the vast accumulation of wealth (gp). In 2e, there was nothing to buy with it (unless the DM allowed magic stores), in 3e there's plently of stuff to buy.... but I have to question.
Why must the gp reward increase depending on your level. Why can't a treasure be 43gp or if your really lucky 250gp, even at 9th, 15th or 25th level?
I've always hated this aspect, where thousands of gp becomes the norm until the pcs are as rich as kings.
I hope 4e has a more realistic economic system, where vast personal wealth tops at a few hundred gp, unless you have a castle or some other 'thing' to bleed your gold.

Unfortunately this was a byproduct of the idea that a +2 bonus in one thing is worth more than a +1 bonus in two things -> therefore we got squared prices like 1000gp for a +1 armor, 4000 for a +2, 9000 for a +3 etc.

Second step was: higher level characters should get higher bonuses -> therefore they also need progressively high treasure.

 

[Orius]

I think a "Santa's bag" of niche items is a much smaller problem than the dependence on magic items from 3.0/3.5. A 15th level fighter with a bag full of interesting items like folding boats has about the same combat power as a 15th level fighter without the bag full of items. If a DM wants to run a low magic item campaign, then the combat challenges the fighter can take on are about the same whether the fighter has the bag of items or not. If the DM gave the fighter a folding boat and then wants to make the fighter navigate an underwater river in the middle of the dungeon, the fighter might actually still have the folding boat instead of having already sold it to add another +1 to his sword.

Yeah, I see it this way. Instead of PCs loading up on buffing items, using items that are useful in adventuring but not necessarily combat sounds like an improvement.

The most interesting items I got as a player weren't the stat-boosting crap, it was the really wierd stuff that wasn't always quite understood and had strange powers. When I DM, I prefer to give out that stuff as well.

 

[Orius]

just spotted this in Races and Classes:

Heroic Tier: 'at this tier you can count on finding +1 longswords, +1 suits of armour and shields... in a larger town or city a skilled smith is capable of forging such goods if you have enough money to afford them. For mightier goods, you must venture into the largest cities in the world.'

Doesn't sound too bad. That meshes with one of the basic assumptions IMC; PC can buy +1 equipment from arms merchants in cities who carry limited stocks of the stuff. A large city or major trade center might go to +2 or +1 with a minor ability tacked on. The really big metropolises (of which there are seldom more than 2 per continent) are the only places to get +3; the stronger stuff must be made or found.