"If this problem is so bad, why aren't YOU doing it, NPC?"

[Belen]

Higher level NPCs may have other concerns. They may be the Sheriff or Warden of a district, the head of a church, hidden away in study, off to another plane of existence, or running a merchant empire.

The older editions of the game actually state these situations.

Unless the events are so world shattering that they attract the notice of the higher level guys, then they probably will not be involved.

If the events are earth shattering, then maybe the BBEG has taken steps to deal with the higher level guys in order to neutralize them.

There are endless possibilities.

 

[WizarDru]

Interesting side note: when NCSoft was adapting Aion from the Asian market to the American market, one of the considerations that had to deal with was the difference in how audience handle quests. To the Asian audience, the response to "Go get the foozle!" was "Okey-dokey" while the western audience was similar to the thread title. In fact, the general opinion is that they went overboard...every NPC has a lengthy explanation why they can't do the task themselves.

For my money, there are often several reasons why the PCs are asked to do a task and the NPCs can't:

1) Similar to Quantarum, my powerful NPCs usually are caught in a web of power and politics. Some didn't want or couldn't expose themselves to accomplish the task. For example, the most powerful mages in Greyhawk dare not blink, metaphorically, lest an evil counterpart take advantage of their absence.

2) Many times, NPCs simply cannot accomplish the task themselves. They may or may not have financial means to do what needs doing, but being able to commit your entire house guard or city watch may not be a great idea, even if you can afford to do so. Sometimes a specialist is needed for the task and the NPCs simply don't have the necessary skill to accomplish the needed goal.

3) Often, the players are members of an organization and questioning simply isn't expected. Soldiers, guards and clergy members aren't expected to question their superiors.

4) Big Picture issues are not handled by the ground team and skirmishing his not handled by the generals. If the NPC wants something done, it may be part of a complex plan, long range goal or special circumstance that would require giving the PCs more data than they could handle or care about. "Yes, I could go and slay the trolls down at the Morigar farm...but I need you to do it. Your presence will alert the neighbors, who in turn will notify the rebels, who forced the trolls there in the first place. While you flush them out, my other agents will be tracking the rebels and I'll be monitoring the wizard's tower for the sign that the lord regent is secretly organizing them when the emergency courier arrives. None of this will work if you don't play your part....now GO!"

 

[Janx]

Here's a real life story that is supposedly true.

A professor of mine used to work at IBM, and he told us this story.

Apparently during some stage of the design of the AS400, there were 2 departments that were to work together on it. Apparently they argued about the solution for months, with bigger and bigger meetings (brining in increasingly higher level managers). Finally, it got to the VP who was over all of them was invited to the biggest meeting yet. He entered the room, with these two sides till not coming to an agreement. He said, "I could make this decision for you. But then, what would I need any of you for? I'll be back in 10 minutes." He left and when he returned, the two teams, valuing their jobs had reached a resolution.

The lesson is, leaders delegate. If you can't handle the problem given to you, you are of no use to the leader.

That translates to PCs as if you can't be a hero and save the day and are trying to pawn it off on the higher ups, you're a problem, not a solution.

 

[Dausuul]

The lesson is, leaders delegate. If you can't handle the problem given to you, you are of no use to the leader.

That translates to PCs as if you can't be a hero and save the day and are trying to pawn it off on the higher ups, you're a problem, not a solution.

In general, yes, but the usual situation that leads to this question being asked is when two things are true:

a) The NPC quest-giver is known to be personally far more powerful and capable than the PCs.

and

b) The quest is one of absolutely critical importance (e.g., saving the world).

If item a) is not true, then of course the PCs should undertake the quest instead of the NPC. If item b) is not true, then it is perfectly reasonable of the NPC to want to delegate this task.

But if both are true, then the NPC should really have a good reason for not coming along*. When the fate of the world is at stake, "It's not my job" is not sufficient excuse. If the NPC says, "You're a problem, not a solution," the PC response is likely to be, "So fire us. Then go save the dang world."

[size=-2]*Yes, I know it's possible to devise such reasons - many good ones have been enumerated upthread. My point is that a reason, beyond "I'm the boss," is required... not so much for the PCs as for the players, who will find it hard to believe that the supposedly wise and benevolent old wizard could be so shortsighted and lazy.[/size]

 

[CharlesRyan]

One thing I think is being overlooked is that the PCs are a party, whereas the higher-level NPC is (usually) solo. As a group, the PCs may be able to accomplish things the NPC can't.

That does beg the question of why the NPC can't gather a group or hirelings to help him do the task himself, or for that matter, make the PCs his hirelings. But it opens another line of potential reasons why it's the PCs who must sally forth.

 

[Stoat]

That does beg the question of why the NPC can't gather a group or hirelings to help him do the task himself, or for that matter, make the PCs his hirelings. But it opens another line of potential reasons why it's the PCs who must sally forth.

It would take time and effort for the NPC to gather a group of people his own level. Baron von Fighter would have to convince Bishop O'Cleric to leave his cathedreal, talk Sage MacWizard into putting aside his studies and persuade The Rouge Rogue to let the thieves' guild run itself for a few weeks. Even assuming that these worthies could be persuaded to team up with Baron von Fighter, whose to say that they would be able work together? They might not trust each other. They might each have a different idea about how to solve the problem. They aren't used to working together as a team.

If the NPC is going to gather a group of people less powerful than him, he might as well use the PC's.

 

[Dausuul]

It would take time and effort for the NPC to gather a group of people his own level. Baron von Fighter would have to convince Bishop O'Cleric to leave his cathedreal, talk Sage MacWizard into putting aside his studies and persuade The Rouge Rogue to let the thieves' guild run itself for a few weeks. Even assuming that these worthies could be persuaded to team up with Baron von Fighter, whose to say that they would be able work together? They might not trust each other. They might each have a different idea about how to solve the problem. They aren't used to working together as a team.

If the NPC is going to gather a group of people less powerful than him, he might as well use the PC's.

But then why isn't the NPC coming along?

 

[Stoat]

But then why isn't the NPC coming along?

For any of the other reasons put forth above?

I think it depends on the specifics: Who are the PC's? Who is the NPC? What is the nature of the threat?

A) The NPC has other obligations, and the PC's seem capable of handling the threat themselves.

B) The BBEG has neutralized the NPC in some manner (capture, blackmail, geas, etc.)

C) The threat must be addressed on multiple fronts. The NPC sends the PC's east to Mordor while he goes south to Orthanc.

D) The PC's are chosen or fated to handle the threat, and the NPC refuses to intervene.

E) The NPC will be happy to help. Give him the powerful artifact you recovered from the Tomb of Doom, and he'll lead the way!

F) The NPC needs to stay behind and hold down the fort while the PC's take the offensive.

G) The PC's are already on the scene, and the NPC can't get there in time to deal with the threat.

But generally, I agree. If the NPC is far more powerful than the PC's and the threat is sufficiently serious, then it makes no sense for the NPC to sit on his hands and do nothing. Elminster has no excuse for not trying to stop the Savage Tide.

 

[Desdichado]

Cross-posted from JoeKGnusher's similar thread:

Why would lower level characters be sent to deal with world-threatening stuff? The threat to the world can gradually emerge, and it works much more smoothly, IMO.

First off, as this thread demonstrates amply well, the entire premise is silly anyway. Secondly, why in the world would you spoil the ending like that? You've just given up one of your best tools to make the game interesting.

The last campaign I ran, the patron hired the PCs to chaperone some textiles into a hot market. It later turned out that she was smuggling alchemical weapons in with the textiles. It later turned out that she was doing this so this army of talking gorillas that she was allied with could defeat the City of Naked Amazon Hotties Who Ride Dinosaurs (Into Battle, you pervs!) because they had a god-killing weapon stashed in their treasure stores. It later turned out that the god-killing weapon actually caused one of the signs of the End Times to occur every time it was used. It later turned out that their patron knew this quite well, and was actually going to sacrifice innocent patsies to cause the end of the world, because she would be elevated to the Goddess of the New World that replaced it.

Of course... that was her plan. The PCs kinda got all in the way of that when they saw the gorillas unloading the textiles (and jars of alchemical weapons), found the body of their patrons' brother stuffed in a cabinet, and realized something was wrong.

As the campaign evolved and each successive revelation added to the "Holy crap, we're in way deeper than we thought! Help!" moments kept piling up... I mean, c'mon! That's priceless. Why would I have wanted to tell the PCs up front, "hey, there's this artifact that can cause the end of the world. Go find it. Here's where it is. I'll sit here and wait for you."?

As an aside, the PCs themselves ended up causing the end of the world, paving the way for demonic armies to sweep across the face of it. Fun, huh? I always get the real winners.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Another way to fix the "problem": Don't use NPC patrons. If the campaign is structured so that the PCs are uncovering the BBEG's grand scheme slowly, bit by bit, then the roles reverse: The PCs go to NPCs for information and aid, and become the driving force behind stopping the growing evil. The PCs become the ones shouting "Wake up! To Arms!" at the NPCs rather than vice versa.