Pathfinder 1E If you pruned the list of spells to 370, which ones would stay and which ones would go?

[Michael Morris]

I'm considering creating a book for my players having the 370 essential spells and if not flat out banning all the others, at least making them rarer. And I have a reason for the number 370 that I may get into later, but for now what spells should stay? Which ones should go??

 

[billd91]

I would get rid of righteous might from the cleric list.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm considering creating a book for my players having the 370 essential spells and if not flat out banning all the others, at least making them rarer. And I have a reason for the number 370 that I may get into later, but for now what spells should stay?

None of them.

Which ones should go??

All of them.

First, I'm going to assume the number refers to the total number of spells in the game including arcane and divine, all sorts of casters, every domain ect. That leaves for example about 3 arcane spells of each school in each level.

If my goal was tightening up the spell list to hit some comparatively small fixed number which I would never feel compelled to increase, I'd probably elimenate the entire spell list and start from scratch with smaller number of much much more flexible spells. I might possibly scrap the entire spell system. While I'd probably retain Vancian casting as a core mechanic, the new system would be designed to balance with smaller numbers of more versital spells. That is to say, for example, that if a sorcerer knew 6 spells of every casting level, in the new system this would be a not insignificant percentage of all the spell effects that were possible. Feats like 'Energy Substitution' would likely cease to be meaningful as written, as there would likely be a single spell which let you do damage in the energy type of your choice. To limit the flexibility, I'd probably have a system where each spellcaster had a list of favored descriptors which limited the choices they could make when casting. For example, there would be a spell called 'Energy Ball' and while it could produce damaging effects of every energy type, you could only create 'Fire' and 'Lightning' balls if you hadn't chosen 'Cold' or 'Acid' among you favorite descriptors during CharGen. Likewise, there would be only a single 'Bestow Protection' spell, but if your descriptor was 'Good', you'd only have access to 'Protection from Evil' (obviously, this one would work of the inverse of your favored). And so on and so forth. Metamagic would become more important in this system, and would potentially need to be rebalanced both in terms of power level and access.

Personally, I could see this project consuming years before I was ready to implement it into play.

 

[delericho]

Well, looking at Vance's Dying Earth series, it appears that at some point in the distant past there was a huge and comprehensive body of spells, most of which have now been lost - with the Wizards in the setting scrabbling over the remnants.

So, if I were to reduce a recent edition of D&D down to 370 spells, I would do so entirely at random, without worrying about making sure every school and/or every level had an equal number of spells.

 

[N'raac]

So, if I were to reduce a recent edition of D&D down to 370 spells, I would do so entirely at random, without worrying about making sure every school and/or every level had an equal number of spells.

Good point - without knowing the goal(s) of the pruning, it's tough to assess how we would do so. One spell of each school (8 schools) for 10 spell levels (0 to 9) is 80 spells. Two (so the specialist wizard can actually meet the requirement to pick two spells of his favored school at each level above 1st) means 160 arcane spells, 16 of each level. That leaves 210 spells to cover divine casters and sprinkle over the remaining Arcanes, including some Universal spells. This assumes you plan on a full slate of spell levels, of course, and don't plan on reducing the maximum spell levels.

To the OP, I think I would start with the spells in the core rulebook. I would need a reason to eliminate any of these core spells, and a reason to add any spell from a non-core source. How good do those reasons have to be? Well, how many spells are in the core rules? If there's 400, I already need to weed out 30 of those to get down to 370, so adding a non-core spell means cutting a core spell. If there's only 200, I need another 170, so I'll be making a lot of non-core selections. If we're starting with Pathfinder or 3e, I think we're looking at cuts, not additions.

 

[Michael Morris]

It was the invention of the Level X spells about 2 months ago that got me pondering this possibility to begin with. I posted a thread on them, but I'll post a few of them.

Cure Wounds
Valran Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Bard X, Clr X, Drd X, Pal X, Rng X
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Half (harmless)

You channel positive energy to cure Xd8 of the damage dealt to the touched creature +1 point per casting level (maximum 5X). Undead are dealt damage by this spell instead of being healed and can attempt a will save for half damage.
(+1) Communal: You may prepare this spell at one level higher to divide the effect over multiple creatures you touch.

(+4) Mass: You may prepare this spell at four levels higher to apply the effect to a number of creatures equal to your level within close range of you. No two creatures affected this way may be more than 30' apart.

Ritual: As a 1 minute ritual this spell cures 1d12 damage per level the spell was cast at.
​

Pain Touch
Sodran Necromancy [Mind Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz X
Component: V, S, F
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round / level (D)
Saving Throw: Varies

The touched creature experiences distracting pain to severe pain depending on the level you cast this spell from, escalating as follows:
​

• 1st level: Target takes a penalty to concentration checks equal to your level (max 5X)​
• 2nd level: The touched creature is sickened.​
• 3rd level: The touched creature takes a penalty to all rolls equal to the spell's level (starting with a -3 penalty at third).​
• 4th level: The touch stuns the creature. At the beginning of each of their turns they can make a willpower save to end this effect.​
• 5th level: As above but the willpower save only ends the effect for that round.​
• 6th level: The subject is staggered.​
• 7th level: The subject is nauseated.​
• 8th level: The subject must save at the beginning of each of their turns fall helpless and unable to act other than to scream.​
• 9th level: The subject takes 5d6 damage / round, save for half on each round.​

Arcane Focus: A wax doll. If the doll has hair or blood from the target the spell has a -4 penalty to saving throws against its effects.​

The potential of this type of spell to consolidate spell lists is very clear, which is why I think it's possible to get the spell list down to an even 370. Why that number?

There are 5 alignments to magic in my setting - so that makes 74 spells per alignment. There are slightly more spells at low level than high so
1st - 10
2nd - 10
3rd - 9
4th - 9
5th - 8
6th - 8
7th - 7
8th - 7
9th - 6

The X spells count against the lowest level they can be cast from. If you were to count each modal or level X spell for each seperate spell they can be you'd end up with well over 370 spells - so perhaps its more accurate to say I'm trying to prune things down to 370 spell entries For example:

Protective Ward
Valran Abjuration (Ward)
Level: Clr (1)
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: 1 min / level
Saving Throw: Will Negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No (see text)

By means of this spell you create a magical barrier around the subject that extends out to 1' away from them that wards from attacks and mental control attempts from creatures and effects of a specific alignment. You must choose the alignment you wish to ward when you prepare or learn the spell (and in this latter case the choice is permanent, but see below). There are three major effects to the most basic version of the protective ward.

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by creatures of the specified alignment.

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by creatures, objects, and spells of the specified alignment. So long as the creature possesses the specified alignment it is warded regardless of whatever other alignments it has.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures of the chosen alignment. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. If the summoned creature has multiple alignments it is still warded so long as it possesses the alignment you chose. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell Resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature, but it is checked only once per casting and if it fails it cannot be retried.

(+1) Communal: You may prepare this spell one level higher to divide its duration by 1 minute increments among multiple creatures you touch.

(+2) Circle of Protection: You may prepare this spell two levels higher to extend the range from the touched creature out to 10', or you may designate a center point that does not move. All creatures within the area gain the benefit of the spell, summoned creatures cannot enter the area but if they were already present they are not forced away. Creatures in the area, or who later enter the area, receive only one attempt to suppress effects that are controlling them. If successful, such effects are suppressed as long as they remain in the area.

(+2) Circle of Entrapment: You may prepare this spell at two levels higher to focus the protection of the circle inward. When so focused, the spell binds a non-good called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle's boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell's area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection spell for that creature only.

A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has Spell Resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its Spell Resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through such means. You can prevent the creature's extra-dimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

Ritual: You can cast circle of entrapment mode as a ritual, adding a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.

(+2) Modal Alignment: You may prepare or learn this spell at two levels higher in order to have the ability to choose the alignment you will affect with this spell at casting time.

Heighten: When you heighten this spell with the feat the deflection and AC bonuses increase by the number of levels you heightened the spell.
​

And so on. Yes, I understand this may mean some spells have entries spanning a page.

 

[Jester David]

Not knowing what spellcasting classes you might have, the ones usable by the most classes should stay. Unless you also plan on banning non-core spellcasting classes.
Work to the more specific spells from there.

 

[Michael Morris]

I'm not a fan of the class glut, but if the spells cover an even scope of what magic normally does the spells should be evenly dividable to the classes as needed.

 

[Matthias]

A left-field approach you might consider is adopting the Words of Power game mechanics from Ultimate Magic. There are 152 "word of power" components listed in that book. You might try this:

Out of all the uncountable possible combinations of the 152 words of power known to exist, there are only 370 combinations of these words which will produce a "live" spell; you can't just throw any given combination together and expect it to work. Any given random combination of words will just cause your mana to sputter and fizzle out with no real effect (like a paper candle that turns out to be a dud). Though the more words you try to stack together, the greater the chance you will blow yourself up with a mana explosion/backlash--i.e. if you try to cast a "bad spell" that twists the laws of Nature too much, Nature will retaliate with a hard smack upside your head...

 

[Michael Morris]

I read the Words of Power rules and wasn't that impressed to be honest.