Ignoring the feat requirement for swapping...

[fba827]

From the very release of 4e, while I understood the feat cost for opening up multiclass (and gaining an encounter power from the other class in the process), the power swap feats always seemed way too steep a cost since you're not changing power level of the character (like any other feat would have done, in some way).

Then I realized that when "themes" came out, it is basically multiclassing without the powerswap feats. You have the one feat to gain access to the theme (and gain an encounter power in the process) and then you can swap out freely between the theme and your base class.

*IF* I ever did allow such a thing, I would be sure to first consider the implications of
poaching. That is to say, i wouldn't want someone to multiclass into a class that someone else is doing. I know that sounds like an odd thing but it would just add insult to injury if the druid is able to out-wizard the wizard in the party in some particular way, might just kill the enjoyment of the wizard player -- i'm all for letting each PC (and therefore each player) having their own niche to call their own.

 

[eamon]

If you're the DM - you can just wing it; tell player's you're open to the suggestion but need to individually inspect the free power swaps to make sure nothing breaks. That's not unreasonable, and if indeed some Avenger/barbarian combo turns out to be better than either, you can still say no.

If you're a player, just ask - chances are, if it's nothing outrageous, the DM won't mind.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IMHO it wouldn't be unbalancing if you also instituted a feature/feat divide between the primary- and multi-class, but the potential exists for some pretty unbalanced interaction. Remember; multi-class characters can typically apply the effects of both classes to what they do, whereas hybrids can't. the feats lost to taking powers from the other class, in multi-classing, typically works to maintain balance.

I don't see this. My Warlock powers generally can't be used through any but my most powerful Psionic powers that allow me to "be" in multiple positions. Likewise, I haven't seen ANY warlock powers that boost my psionics.

Yes, I do ge nice synergies, but nothing a hybrid wouldn't get. The only reason my Starlock/Psion is multiclassed instead of a hybrid is because of class features that would be lost, not power interactions.

I doubt it. Those feats were always the ones that really came across as so-called "feat taxes" to me that really added nothing but punishing someone for wanting to multi-class effectively. My guess is at the time they were afraid people would see it as overpowered (many 4e designs in the original PHB seemed to be deliberately weaker than they should have been due to that reason).

I don't think it would unbalance anything.

Agreed 100%. Even though I think it's a classic Feat Tax, I still won't let it deter me from multiclassing when PC concept demands it.

 

[Herschel]

What is my reasoning? One should not have to spend a feat to remove a power and replace it with an equal level power. There is no imbalance there. There is no extra benefit that goes outside the given level like a feat would grant.

I'll give you an easy example: Earthsoul Genasi Assault Swordmage with Come & Get It (especially pre-errata). The seventh-level Swordmage attacks are probably my least favorite. For a feat, get a +1 to hit, skill training and a really great power too? Pull every enemy in a burst 3 adjacent, get the attack, Earthshock (with bonus, if you like) to knock them prone then have the wide array of Swordmage bursts/blasts to nail them with an action point (especially with Warlord goodness then even plain, old Sword Burst goes nova). Oh, and you have a free feat for Earthshock Master to add more damage. You can then either get one more burst attack or, better yet, just Armathor's Step out and everyone's in a perfect blast/burst pattern for a Wizard Daily.

And you can do this every encounter that isn't spread wide out.

That's stoopid powerful for the price of a single feat.

 

[aurance]

Agreed with keterys and Herschel. Yes, if you just pick another class's power for flavor, chances are the feat cost may be too much. But there exist a great many builds where a smartly chosen out-of-class power is definitely worth a feat.

 

[Zaran]

I'll give you an easy example: Earthsoul Genasi Assault Swordmage with Come & Get It (especially pre-errata). The seventh-level Swordmage attacks are probably my least favorite. For a feat, get a +1 to hit, skill training and a really great power too? Pull every enemy in a burst 3 adjacent, get the attack, Earthshock (with bonus, if you like) to knock them prone then have the wide array of Swordmage bursts/blasts to nail them with an action point (especially with Warlord goodness then even plain, old Sword Burst goes nova). Oh, and you have a free feat for Earthshock Master to add more damage. You can then either get one more burst attack or, better yet, just Armathor's Step out and everyone's in a perfect blast/burst pattern for a Wizard Daily.

And you can do this every encounter that isn't spread wide out.

That's stoopid powerful for the price of a single feat.

Why is that super powerful when any Defender should have powers of equal power at level. Just because Come and Get It is a little broken doesn't mean a Swordmage has to get a feat to have it when they are replacing another power for it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When assessing how good a power swap is, you also have to consider what is being given up.

Certainly, powers will synergize differently for different classes- our party's Half-Elf Rogue is getting good use out of Eyebite, for instance- arguably more use than a typical Warlock would.

But once you burn that feat to multiclass, you're already giving something up, and a power swap rarely boosts the power of a PC the same way as a feat that involves only benefit.

 

[corwyn77]

Why is that super powerful when any Defender should have powers of equal power at level. Just because Come and Get It is a little broken doesn't mean a Swordmage has to get a feat to have it when they are replacing another power for it.

I agree; Herschel uses an example power which is thought to be overpowered for it's level already. Of course you can come up with a scenario where using it cross-class is overpowered.

My only real concern usually involves swapping powers of the same role and stacking those effects - Barbarian powers (where striker damage is a function of powers, not features) with a Ranger's quarry, or Avengers oath are a good example.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Why is that super powerful when any Defender should have powers of equal power at level. Just because Come and Get It is a little broken doesn't mean a Swordmage has to get a feat to have it when they are replacing another power for it.

While they should be comparable, there are some situations where you are able to get "more" from another class.

The avenger's striker power comes from his oath power ... he doesn't get many attacks that let him attack multiple times. Lot's of optimizers go out of class to get "crit fishing" powers that let him make multiple attacks to try to get a crit with this oath. This can be pretty abusive when combined with a ranger powers. The ranger is like an avenger, he gets multi attacks which increases his accuracy just like an Oath does. However, an avenger with ranger powers gets to do both

Similarly, an invoker gets a daily that stuns multiple people in heroic tier. So does a psion. However none of them have both. Multiclassing, with a power swap, allows them to get both of those powers. They aren't getting something they don't already have ... but they are getting more of it than they normally have.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yeah, mny times the Multi options are worth a feat.

My old sorc multies into Wizard for ritual caster and a nice skill. Then took the Mass Resistance Daily that saved the party at least three times.

Some classes like rogues and bards have very weak utilities, and I find utilities fun to grab.