Illusion (figment) and saving throws

[kenjib]

When do you get saving throws against an illusion, like silent image? It says "when interacted with" in the description. That is pretty vague. The section on figments doesn't really clarify either. What is interaction? Does just seeing it qualify?

 

[hong]

Interaction means something more than just casual observation -- trying to grab it, or attack it, or carry on a conversation with it, for instance. Just seeing or hearing an illusion won't do, although careful examination would give a saving throw.

 

[kenjib]

Interesting. I think ventriloquism is kind of messed up then. It says that anyone who hears it gets a saving throw to tell that it's illusory. It's an illusion (figment) spell. Shouldn't it be more like anyone who interacts with it, like perhaps in a conversation, gets a saving throw? It's not like ventriloquism is a super powerful spell anyway. It just seems really weak that it has that extreme limitation on it.

 

[BlindKobold]

Interesting. I think ventriloquism is kind of messed up then. It says that anyone who hears it gets a saving throw to tell that it's illusory. It's an illusion (figment) spell. Shouldn't it be more like anyone who interacts with it, like perhaps in a conversation, gets a saving throw? It's not like ventriloquism is a super powerful spell anyway. It just seems really weak that it has that extreme limitation on it.

Anyone HEARING it IS interacting with it. Sound is much different than visual. Consider the old saying, seeing is believing. People are used to doubting things they HEAR... but tend to believe "their own eyes."

That's the only reason I can think of....

 

[Galfridus]

Interesting. I think ventriloquism is kind of messed up then. It says that anyone who hears it gets a saving throw to tell that it's illusory. It's an illusion (figment) spell. Shouldn't it be more like anyone who interacts with it, like perhaps in a conversation, gets a saving throw? It's not like ventriloquism is a super powerful spell anyway. It just seems really weak that it has that extreme limitation on it.

I only give saving throws for ventriloquism if the interaction is significant: if you are trying to impersonate someone, if you are having a conversation, etc.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Ventriloquism is amazing, when combined with invisibility, Hiding, or something preventing your foes from seeing you. Now your spell's verbal components come from far away from you. Even silence targeted on you won't hurt (of course, beware they target the location of your ventriloquism spell).

As an example, a bard casts invsibility and ventriloquism, then starts casting summon monster spells from his handy wand.

Another example: a wizard casts improved invisibility and ventriloquism, then starts casting terrible offensive spells against the cleric (avoid invisibility purge and silence spells). With the cleric dead, he moves on to the PC wizard (avoid see invisibility followed by roasting spells).

 

[kenjib]

Interesting idea. It can be used to hide a person as well as the more obvious application of tricking other people. I hadn't thought of that. I suppose one question that you brought up is: If the caster is silenced, can he continue to use a ventriloquism effect already that he previously cast?

The spell description reads: "The character can make the character's voice (or any sound that the character can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else..." If he can't normally make any sounds vocally, since he's silenced, can he still project his voice?

If he can, if the person makes a save and detects a ventriloquism as an illusion, I guess that doesn't mean that they know where the voice is coming from, it just says that they can tell that it's illusory (I can't think of a way to explain this in non-metagame terms though...hmmm...) so your tactic would seem to work regardless of whether or not they make their save.

I like the idea about requiring "significant interaction," by the way. That makes the spell behave more like other figment spells, as it should.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Ventriloquism is amazing, when combined with invisibility, Hiding, or something preventing your foes from seeing you. Now your spell's verbal components come from far away from you. Even silence targeted on you won't hurt (of course, beware they target the location of your ventriloquism spell).

I was sure you wouldn't be able to do that (thinking it required concentration). But that looks like it should work since concentration isn't required. Even if they make the save, they realize it's an illusion, but it wouldn't reveal your true location… by sound at least. Visual spell effects scent and sounds produced from movement would still give you away. I hadn't played a caster for the last few years, wish I'd seen that before.

I would think if you were targeted with silence or in a silenced area it wouldn't allow you to cast verbal spells.

 

[blargney the second]

Great. Now I want to make an illusionist called Heisenberg.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Great. Now I want to make an illusionist called Heisenberg.

He'd need Flyby Attack or Mobile Spellcaster to keep on the move before and after casting. The best would be a researched spell to take a move as an immediate action if he falls under the range of a divination effect. It's a shame D&D has no real "determine speed/velocity" spell to work with for the other half. Awesome thought, though!