Illusion (figment) and saving throws

[blargney the second]

Nice!

 

[Zanticor]

Aside from the discussion on interaction with sound, can some of the more experienced illusionists give an insight in how they handle the interaction/automatic disbelieve problem. For instance is you step into an illusion do you immediately disbelieve it? So do you get a reflex save for the pit with illusionary cover? Or do you get a will save first for walking on it? Or both? Or do you just fall in and disbelieve after landing? And what to think of the guy running behind you. Does he get to disbelieve automatically for seeing you step into an illusion or does he get a save with a +4 bonus?

Thanks,

Zanticor

 

[irdeggman]

PHB pg 174 covers the falling through an illusionary floor pit trap.

 

[Zanticor]

It is exactly that description of disbelief that is quite problematic to me. It says that if you fall through an illusory floor you know it was illusionary. Does that mean you just fall in without saves? What about if you were poking it with a stick before but failed your save? Does the person behind you now automatic disbelieve the illusion and see what lies behind it or does he only receive a +4 bonus if you yell at him to watch out. These cases are more important in different scenarios like an illusionary mass of back tentacles. You hope nobody steps in, but what if they do? Do they immediately disbelieve? Do their fellow monsters also see it is a fake or do they first need to talk? Or would you just rule the illusion disappears because it got hit?

Zanticor

 

[irdeggman]

It is exactly that description of disbelief that is quite problematic to me. It says that if you fall through an illusory floor you know it was illusionary. Does that mean you just fall in without saves? What about if you were poking it with a stick before but failed your save? Does the person behind you now automatic disbelieve the illusion and see what lies behind it or does he only receive a +4 bonus if you yell at him to watch out. These cases are more important in different scenarios like an illusionary mass of back tentacles. You hope nobody steps in, but what if they do? Do they immediately disbelieve? Do their fellow monsters also see it is a fake or do they first need to talk? Or would you just rule the illusion disappears because it got hit?

Zanticor

It depends on the trap description.

IIRC, you would normally get two different saves here.

One for deterimining if it was an illusion (thus negating need for the other one)

And then one for falling.

I can't think of why you wouldn't get the latter save as long you weren't helpless - it is mostly based on reflexive actions that take place once you start to fall.

As far as everyone else is concerned - I don't know why they would get an automatic disbelief check. They have not interacted with the illusion.

To them the person falling through had merely disappeared or shifted through the floor with no explanation.

Now if the person falling through took a free action to tell everyone there was an illusionary floor or something like that then they fall under the bonus to their save as described.

 

[moritheil]

An illusion does not disappear just because it was interacted with (barring specific defensive spells like mirror image.) It just ceases to be real to whoever made their save. (Quasireal illusions revert to their fractional reality.)

In the bridge example, there is a paradox: we can easily think of a case where an illusory bridge is fine for those with low will saves, but those with high will saves will fall through!

 

[Zanticor]

No I don 't believe silent image and the like work like that. Maybe if you infuse them with shadow like a shadowcraft mage (RoS) can it will work like that but I guess even that would be a house rule.

Zanticor