Illusion Question

[Wolffenjugend]

Let's say a wizard casts persistent image and creates an image of a parked wagon. Is there a way to get a save simply by looking at the wagon? I mean, its not like a person or creature who must constantly be doing something to appear real - it's a wagon.

I realize there is a save if the wagon is interacted with, but can someone look for misplaced shadows or some other visual inconsistency to grant a save? Is there a need for suspicion before a save is allowed at all? i.e. unless the wagon is physically interacted with then no save is allowed even if someone suspects the wagon might be more than it seems?

I ask b/c it's a pretty powerful spell and some characters in our group have really high Will saves that would make it likely they could pass their saves if they were given one just for looking. Perhaps there would be modifiers? Say a -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance?

What do you think?

 

[PallidPatience]

Anyone interacting, examining, or studying an illusion is granted a save. Just looking at the wagon and walking on would not allow a save, but searching for misplaced shadows would definitely allow one.

 

[nameless]

The ELH gives Spot and Listen DCs for defeating illusions, and the DC is 80, I believe (but that circumvents the need for a save).

I'd be wary of giving them saves just for casually looking (Spot), but giving them a save based on a successful Search roll, or possibly give them an automatic save for incontrovertible proof (like seeing a mouse run through the side of the wagon) seems like a good idea. Something like Search DC 15+key ability+spell level seems fair to figure out something is fishy (and give a normal Will save).

 

[dcollins]

Let's say a wizard casts persistent image and creates an image of a parked wagon. Is there a way to get a save simply by looking at the wagon? I mean, its not like a person or creature who must constantly be doing something to appear real - it's a wagon.

The way the magic rules are written is that a viewer must "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion". Two examples are given: (1) A person stopping before an illusory floor and studying or probing it. (2) A person being attacked by an illusory giant.

Both of these examples read to me like someone needs to be within reach of the illusion and able test it out by touching it.

 

[hong]

The ELH gives Spot and Listen DCs for defeating illusions, and the DC is 80, I believe (but that circumvents the need for a save).

I'd be wary of giving them saves just for casually looking (Spot), but giving them a save based on a successful Search roll, or possibly give them an automatic save for incontrovertible proof (like seeing a mouse run through the side of the wagon) seems like a good idea. Something like Search DC 15+key ability+spell level seems fair to figure out something is fishy (and give a normal Will save).

How does one notice a mouse running through the side of the wagon? A Spot check, naturally.

I allow a DC 40 check to grant a save. The ELH DC is plain silly.

 

[CRGreathouse]

How does one notice a mouse running through the side of the wagon? A Spot check, naturally.

I allow a DC 40 check to grant a save. The ELH DC is plain silly.

A DC 40 Spot check (in appropriate situations, like the mouse running into the wagon) to *allow* a save is different from the ELH's Spot check to notice an illusion in any circumstances without the need for a save.

 

[Thanee]

There is usually no way to discern an illusion, except by doing something actively, or when actually touching (or otherwise interacting with, like talking to or throwing a stone at) it in some way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[UltimaGabe]

I allow a DC 40 check to grant a save. The ELH DC is plain silly.

That's a DC 80 Spot Check INSTEAD of a Save.

 

[hong]

A DC 40 Spot check (in appropriate situations, like the mouse running into the wagon) to *allow* a save is different from the ELH's Spot check to notice an illusion in any circumstances without the need for a save.

The ELH DC is silly not just because it's a number apparently pulled out of thin air, but because it provides a means of bypassing the core mechanic for dealing with spells. It renders the caster's ability moot; a 1st level illusion by an Int 14 caster is exactly as hard/easy to see through as a 7th level one by an Int 34 caster. This is entirely counter to the convention established by the game through to 20th level. (You may or may not agree with that convention, but if it's good enough for the first 20 levels of play, it should be darn well good enough for another 20 levels.)

 

[Kalanyr]

I actually agree with Hong , a skill check that basically completely neuter's Illusions that can be consistantly made by the low 20's is really not a good idea.

The ELH seems to be kinda nasty to magic in general though (Saves scale but Spell DCs don't automatically (this gets worse in 3.5e when DC boosts from other sources now stop but save increases keep going)).