Whimsical
Explorer
Read Monte Cook's excellent Design Secrets: High-Level Adventures article.
I'm an incompetent normal-magic DM--how do I fix it?
Insight
Adventurer
It sounds like concerns are mainly about running a high-level game using standard D&D wealth and magic availability. There are a lot of ways around this.
If your main sticking point is full spellcasters, run a campaign where characters cannot take more than half their levels in Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, whatever. This will greatly reduce the players' over-reliance on spells to get them out of trouble.
If on the other hand the problem is the loss of the "wow" factor associated with treasure, this is a bit harder. You are going to have to fundamentally change your world's economy. Gold and treasure has to be less common, and then when the characters find treasure - bang - there's your excitement.
You are not alone in having issues with high level games. The game becomes very cumbersome at high level, especially for a DM with a full time job (or school), family, and other committments.
If your main sticking point is full spellcasters, run a campaign where characters cannot take more than half their levels in Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, whatever. This will greatly reduce the players' over-reliance on spells to get them out of trouble.
If on the other hand the problem is the loss of the "wow" factor associated with treasure, this is a bit harder. You are going to have to fundamentally change your world's economy. Gold and treasure has to be less common, and then when the characters find treasure - bang - there's your excitement.
You are not alone in having issues with high level games. The game becomes very cumbersome at high level, especially for a DM with a full time job (or school), family, and other committments.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Well, I love DMing high magic games and love playing in them even more. The first thing I have found is that I used to be scared of high magic mainly because of balance. I was always concerned that the more magic I let in, the harder to balance the encounter. Much easier to let the party fight orcs and NPC fighters forever, lest I throw them something too tough and they die.
But then I realized my philosophy was all wrong. I now have no problem liberally giving out treasure and magic items, because I realized that if I'm liberal with the magic and the treasure, I can also be liberal with encounter difficulty. I have given the party enough resources that if they die in an encounter, then its because they played poorly, not because I didn't "balance" the encounter. Now granted, you can't throw a great wyrm at 5th level PCs but, if my 5th level PCs feel like going to the Troll marsh and they get their asses kicked, then that is their fault for not recognizing their own limitations.
I have found that what works for me is that I run a largely status quo world then I have my main adventure path. The main adventure is generally geared towards the level of the party in terms of difficulty. Everything else is not. I also don't worry about whether the party will have the resources to defeat a certain obstacle or creature. As long as the EL is close to the average party level, then its up to them to overcome it. In return, I'm pretty liberal with the treasure.
Another key to my success is that I don't let it bother me if the party completely bypasses something I had planned for them to encounter. In fact, I try to force them to come up with creative solutions by not even bothering to figure out how they can achieve something. That is up to them to figure out. For example, for a group of 5th level PCs, I might put a sheer 100' foot deep pit in the middle of my dungeon with the object of their quest somewhere below. How do they get down there? Well, thats the PCs problem. Its up to them to use their resources, spells, items, and class abilities to figure out a way down. If I know the party is off sufficient level to have access to Teleport, (even if there is no arcane caster in the party!), I'll put in a room with no physical entrance. How do they get in? Well, thats up to them. They should have sufficient resources even if they lack the obvious one such having someone who can cast Teleport.
I also don't pull punches with monsters. I often give my creatures max hit points, and if they need it, class levels too. If the party can wipe the floor with an Ogre, how about 4 Ogre fighters armed and armored with near max hit points? Now they have a fight on their hands.
One thing, I'll recommend is you should also know the PHB and the DMG like the back of your hand. I strongly suggest reading both books cover to cover. Also if you intend to use a monster, be sure to review all of their special attacks and abilities in advance so you feel comfortable unleashing them on the party. Also play your opponents intelligently (or at least realistically if they aren't smart). For example if Drow are going to ambush the party, they will do it right. They will observe secretly, see if they can identify spell casters, and then when the ambush is sprung they attack by dropping Silence, globes of Darkness and such to sow maximum confusion on the party. I don't pull any punches.
But in exchange, my PCs get to keep all the cool magical gear they would get if they kill the drow. I'm liberal about letting them sell such loot and even having custom magical items built for them. Such things cost money or favors they owe to the mages who make it, but that in turn leads to further adventures and more fun. For my everything-goes-D&D-to-the-max play style, I have found the Realms works best for me. And high level NPCs are not a problem for me for the simple reason is that for every save-the-world quest the PCs might be on, well Elminster is juggling two or three of his own and doesn't have time to deal with PCs. Or if PC's think all that magical gear makes them gods, its pretty easy to have some high level lord get offended and send some high level uber goons to take them down a peg.
Anyway, the bottom line is have fun.
But then I realized my philosophy was all wrong. I now have no problem liberally giving out treasure and magic items, because I realized that if I'm liberal with the magic and the treasure, I can also be liberal with encounter difficulty. I have given the party enough resources that if they die in an encounter, then its because they played poorly, not because I didn't "balance" the encounter. Now granted, you can't throw a great wyrm at 5th level PCs but, if my 5th level PCs feel like going to the Troll marsh and they get their asses kicked, then that is their fault for not recognizing their own limitations.
I have found that what works for me is that I run a largely status quo world then I have my main adventure path. The main adventure is generally geared towards the level of the party in terms of difficulty. Everything else is not. I also don't worry about whether the party will have the resources to defeat a certain obstacle or creature. As long as the EL is close to the average party level, then its up to them to overcome it. In return, I'm pretty liberal with the treasure.
Another key to my success is that I don't let it bother me if the party completely bypasses something I had planned for them to encounter. In fact, I try to force them to come up with creative solutions by not even bothering to figure out how they can achieve something. That is up to them to figure out. For example, for a group of 5th level PCs, I might put a sheer 100' foot deep pit in the middle of my dungeon with the object of their quest somewhere below. How do they get down there? Well, thats the PCs problem. Its up to them to use their resources, spells, items, and class abilities to figure out a way down. If I know the party is off sufficient level to have access to Teleport, (even if there is no arcane caster in the party!), I'll put in a room with no physical entrance. How do they get in? Well, thats up to them. They should have sufficient resources even if they lack the obvious one such having someone who can cast Teleport.
I also don't pull punches with monsters. I often give my creatures max hit points, and if they need it, class levels too. If the party can wipe the floor with an Ogre, how about 4 Ogre fighters armed and armored with near max hit points? Now they have a fight on their hands.
One thing, I'll recommend is you should also know the PHB and the DMG like the back of your hand. I strongly suggest reading both books cover to cover. Also if you intend to use a monster, be sure to review all of their special attacks and abilities in advance so you feel comfortable unleashing them on the party. Also play your opponents intelligently (or at least realistically if they aren't smart). For example if Drow are going to ambush the party, they will do it right. They will observe secretly, see if they can identify spell casters, and then when the ambush is sprung they attack by dropping Silence, globes of Darkness and such to sow maximum confusion on the party. I don't pull any punches.
But in exchange, my PCs get to keep all the cool magical gear they would get if they kill the drow. I'm liberal about letting them sell such loot and even having custom magical items built for them. Such things cost money or favors they owe to the mages who make it, but that in turn leads to further adventures and more fun. For my everything-goes-D&D-to-the-max play style, I have found the Realms works best for me. And high level NPCs are not a problem for me for the simple reason is that for every save-the-world quest the PCs might be on, well Elminster is juggling two or three of his own and doesn't have time to deal with PCs. Or if PC's think all that magical gear makes them gods, its pretty easy to have some high level lord get offended and send some high level uber goons to take them down a peg.
Anyway, the bottom line is have fun.
I am rather fond low magic adventures. I use classed NPCs as opposed to monsters with special abilities for most of my adventures (reserving full fleged monsters for special encounters). Using lots of monsters, in my experience, can lead to a "monster of the week" feel...
That said, after almost 10 years of low magic campaings I do feel in the mood for a higher magic setting... and plan to run a World of Warcraft campaign when its my turn to DM again.
The best bit to remember is that in a high magic game YOU have access to high magic just like the players do. Crack open the books and go wild.
That said, after almost 10 years of low magic campaings I do feel in the mood for a higher magic setting... and plan to run a World of Warcraft campaign when its my turn to DM again.
The best bit to remember is that in a high magic game YOU have access to high magic just like the players do. Crack open the books and go wild.
Endur
First Post
knight_isa said:
That depends on what you consider a "good example". Some would argue that there are no good examples of gameplay in the level 11-20 range, that high level has inherent problems. Others will come up with examples that they think work.
Its really up to you and your group, though.
There are plenty of High Level adventures. Bastion of Broken Souls, City of the Spider Queen, etc. from WOTC. Numerous high level adventures from third party publishers.
Thorin Stoutfoot
First Post
All it takes is a simple change...
... a change in attitude. Whenever possible, find ways to say "Yes" to player requests rather than defaulting to "no." Learn to use tricks against PCs, and put together encounters where they HAVE to use their magic items. And don't pull your punches. This will lead to a rewarding game that the players enjoy.
Learn from the masters. Monte Cook has written a number of high level modules that are very much worth running and reading.
... a change in attitude. Whenever possible, find ways to say "Yes" to player requests rather than defaulting to "no." Learn to use tricks against PCs, and put together encounters where they HAVE to use their magic items. And don't pull your punches. This will lead to a rewarding game that the players enjoy.
Learn from the masters. Monte Cook has written a number of high level modules that are very much worth running and reading.
Perun
Mushroom
I'm a fan of moderate magic, but I've been dissatisfied with 3(.5)e approach to magic items. In our last campaign (reaching levels 13-14, then going on hiatus) we had a LOT of magic items. The vast majority created by the party. Wizards are extremely willing to burn gold and XP because it will give them more power. A headband of intellect +6 has a market price of 36,000 gp, but only 18,000 when you creati it yourself, and the 1,440 XP is two encounter's worth of creatures (who will be much easier to deal with with that additional +3 spell DC and bonus spells, courtesy of headband). And saves are going through the roof (everyone and their mother wear the best claok of resistance they can afford)...
It has reached the point where the vast majority of items we found on adventure woudl just be sold for hard cash. We'd keep healing and protective magic and maybe something else, but usually it's just sending the character with most ranks in Diplomacy to the merchant.
So, if I ever decide to run another campaign, I'm seriously thinking on severely limiting the creation of magic items. I realise such a game might not be for everyone, but I'd like to try it (I'v eseen the high magic item end of the spectrum, now I'd like to see its opposite).
Regards.
It has reached the point where the vast majority of items we found on adventure woudl just be sold for hard cash. We'd keep healing and protective magic and maybe something else, but usually it's just sending the character with most ranks in Diplomacy to the merchant.
So, if I ever decide to run another campaign, I'm seriously thinking on severely limiting the creation of magic items. I realise such a game might not be for everyone, but I'd like to try it (I'v eseen the high magic item end of the spectrum, now I'd like to see its opposite).
Regards.
Gold Roger
First Post
My main exeriences are with low level, low power, low magic campaigns. That said, I'm currently trying my thoughts on high magic as well.
When you want to see how a high level D&D gameplay can work well look at Sagiro's and Piratecats Storyhours.
On the impact magic can have on a world, ptolus may be good to look at, as it's been specifically design to be that kind of world. Yeah, it's costy, but Monte Cook is the grandmaster of high magic D&D and the guy that originally did the wealth by level guidelines. There's supposed to be a lot of advice and commentary on this kind of game, as well as learning by observation by reading the setting.
I think one of the keys to high magic is "don't worry to much". Make sure some basics are covered and whenever you introduce a new part of your gameworld think of one or two things how mid level (high level magic is propably not widely available in even a high level campaign) magic might influence it and leave it at that.
When you want to see how a high level D&D gameplay can work well look at Sagiro's and Piratecats Storyhours.
On the impact magic can have on a world, ptolus may be good to look at, as it's been specifically design to be that kind of world. Yeah, it's costy, but Monte Cook is the grandmaster of high magic D&D and the guy that originally did the wealth by level guidelines. There's supposed to be a lot of advice and commentary on this kind of game, as well as learning by observation by reading the setting.
I think one of the keys to high magic is "don't worry to much". Make sure some basics are covered and whenever you introduce a new part of your gameworld think of one or two things how mid level (high level magic is propably not widely available in even a high level campaign) magic might influence it and leave it at that.
Whimsical
Explorer
Yes, and he describes the high level elements of Ptolus in his webarticle Design Diary: Part V: Above the CityGold Roger said:
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