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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6884571" data-attributes="member: 48965">How'd I know that would be the answer <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm&nbsp; &nbsp; :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> . I don't see 5e's class abilities as any more vague or ill defined than 4e's or 3e's... I know what action surge allows my character to do, I know what stunning fist does, I kow what Wildshape does and&nbsp; so on... so could you give some examples of what exactly you are talking about here?&nbsp; Again... not seeing a difference between this and 5e... some concrete examples would help.&nbsp;&nbsp; So in effect, right here, you are saying the players of any edition don't really have the power to dictate their own effectiveness to the DM, right?&nbsp; Ah, ok so we aren't speaking to class features... and we aren't speaking to spells... so we're talking about 5e skills (even though you continuously present this idea of vagueness and uncertainty around capabilities as if it encompasses the entirety of the game... don't you think that's a little disingenuous of you?).&nbsp; So I'll ask again because in all honesty I'm not seeing how other edition skills were all that different, can you give a concrete example or two (outside of stealth which was left purposefully vague in 5e) of this difference of skills in the various editions? Yeah see you did it again... implied that 5e doesn't really have any rules (without house-rulings) when in fact it does...&nbsp; Outside that you seem to now be shifting your argument ever so slightly towarss community as opposed to the actual systems... so which one is it because I don't really care about the community so much as the actual rules around a particular edition.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 6884571, member: 48965"] How'd I know that would be the answer :erm: . I don't see 5e's class abilities as any more vague or ill defined than 4e's or 3e's... I know what action surge allows my character to do, I know what stunning fist does, I kow what Wildshape does and so on... so could you give some examples of what exactly you are talking about here? Again... not seeing a difference between this and 5e... some concrete examples would help. So in effect, right here, you are saying the players of any edition don't really have the power to dictate their own effectiveness to the DM, right? Ah, ok so we aren't speaking to class features... and we aren't speaking to spells... so we're talking about 5e skills (even though you continuously present this idea of vagueness and uncertainty around capabilities as if it encompasses the entirety of the game... don't you think that's a little disingenuous of you?). So I'll ask again because in all honesty I'm not seeing how other edition skills were all that different, can you give a concrete example or two (outside of stealth which was left purposefully vague in 5e) of this difference of skills in the various editions? Yeah see you did it again... implied that 5e doesn't really have any rules (without house-rulings) when in fact it does... Outside that you seem to now be shifting your argument ever so slightly towarss community as opposed to the actual systems... so which one is it because I don't really care about the community so much as the actual rules around a particular edition. [/QUOTE]

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